What did I think of Kiowa? It needs to improve in some areas!

[freehand]

On 8/21/2024 at 5:25 PM, Robi Hobby said:

Unfortunately, I also have to say that the 3D Model is as poorly Modelled as a free MOD from the Community. I am convinced of the quality of the CH-47F. Great work!

And that's why the Kiowa is dead for me. In VR, the Kiowa is unbearable for me. That's my opinion. It's a real shame. I don't fly the Kiowa anymore.

lol your kidding right ?

[RealDCSpilot]

I do totally understand him. It's not only the textures (and sound). It's also full of bugs. They made the big claim that it will be no EA release, but it is a 100% EA release.
Here, just 3 bugs in one shot. I took me only 30 minutes on release day to find them:

1. searchlight is too bright and cut off after ~50 m.

2. i can trick the NVG's display to act like the AH-64's IHADSS.

3. i can completely break all the cockpit displays and have them floating in the air.

The module's quality standards are behind every other 3rd party module. And for what it brings to the table, compared to others, it's overpriced. A humble 49-59 price range would have been better.

[freehand]

9 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

I do totally understand him. It's not only the textures (and sound). It's also full of bugs. They made the big claim that it will be no EA release, but it is a 100% EA release.
Here, just 3 bugs in one shot. I took me only 30 minutes on release day to find them:

1. searchlight is too bright and cut off after ~50 m.

2. i can trick the NVG's display to act like the AH-64's IHADSS.

3. i can completely break all the cockpit displays and have them floating in the air.

The module's quality standards are behind every other 3rd party module. And for what it brings to the table, compared to others, it's overpriced. A humble 49-59 price range would have been better.

So you don't fly in VR because of this, like him ?

 

Edited August 23, 2024 by freehand

[RealDCSpilot]

From time to time i use it for tasks where it fits. But it also reminds me of over promise and under deliver everytime. It's a cool aircraft, but that is because of Bell and not PC. It's sad that certain 3rd party devs have different standards and ethics about the quality of their products than others. It's also not about the whole team at PC, it's just one or two individuals.

Edited August 23, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[YoYo]

16 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

I do totally understand him. It's not only the textures (and sound). It's also full of bugs. They made the big claim that it will be no EA release, but it is a 100% EA release.
Here, just 3 bugs in one shot. I took me only 30 minutes on release day to find them:

1. searchlight is too bright and cut off after ~50 m.

2. i can trick the NVG's display to act like the AH-64's IHADSS.

3. i can completely break all the cockpit displays and have them floating in the air.

The module's quality standards are behind every other 3rd party module. And for what it brings to the table, compared to others, it's overpriced. A humble 49-59 price range would have been better.

It looks more like mods problem, so individual issue I suppose. I never noticed something like this and I fly VR only each day.

[RealDCSpilot]

No, i got no mods installed. All of them got reported shortly after release. You can replicate them on your end:

1. easy, turn on the search light and bring it forward. It's so bright that it even works in daylight. At night it's much better to see how crazy bright it is. Then fly around slightly tilted forward. You will see that it has a very limited range and is cut off.

2. The ODA is only available in the pilot's NVG. But if you switch between copilot and pilot seat several times, switching between NVG on and off and ODA on and off, you will eventually end up with NVG off but ODA on. Which shouldn't work because the ODA is a fixed part of the goggles. (It's a simple logic bug in their code)

3. Also easy to replicate. Never checked this in SP, but in MP. Just go to the notebook page on your MFD. Read the mission briefing till the end. From there all digital cockpit display elements will snap to the object space of the player camera and will stick to it. This happens in VR, don't know if it's visible in 2D if you don't change your camera angles. Check the bug reports, this is not the only way to trigger it. Definitely a nasty bug that ruins your flight 100%.

Edited August 24, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[freehand]

3 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

No, i got no mods installed. All of them got reported shortly after release. You can replicate them on your end:

1. easy, turn on the search light and bring it forward. It's so bright that it even works in daylight. At night it's much better to see how crazy bright it is. Then fly around slightly tilted forward. You will see that it has a very limited range and is cut off.

2. The ODA is only available in the pilot's NVG. But if you switch between copilot and pilot seat several times, switching between NVG on and off and ODA on and off, you will eventually end up with NVG off but ODA on. Which shouldn't work because the ODA is a fixed part of the goggles. (It's a simple logic bug in their code)

3. Also easy to replicate. Never checked this in SP, but in MP. Just go to the notebook page on your MFD. Read the mission briefing till the end. From there all digital cockpit display elements will snap to the object space of the player camera and will stick to it. This happens in VR, don't know if it's visible in 2D if you don't change your camera angles. Check the bug reports, this is not the only way to trigger it. Definitely a nasty bug that ruins your flight 100%.

 

When did you give the Log file to PC ? I tried to find it.

Edited August 24, 2024 by freehand

[RealDCSpilot]

Stuff like this doesn't show up in a log file. All of this is easy to reproduce in a couple of steps. Turning on the search light = 1 step. xD
And all of these bugs (amongst others) were reported already more than 2 months ago.

Edited August 24, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[Hotdognz]

No, i got no mods installed. All of them got reported shortly after release. You can replicate them on your end:

1. easy, turn on the search light and bring it forward. It's so bright that it even works in daylight. At night it's much better to see how crazy bright it is. Then fly around slightly tilted forward. You will see that it has a very limited range and is cut off.

2. The ODA is only available in the pilot's NVG. But if you switch between copilot and pilot seat several times, switching between NVG on and off and ODA on and off, you will eventually end up with NVG off but ODA on. Which shouldn't work because the ODA is a fixed part of the goggles. (It's a simple logic bug in their code)

3. Also easy to replicate. Never checked this in SP, but in MP. Just go to the notebook page on your MFD. Read the mission briefing till the end. From there all digital cockpit display elements will snap to the object space of the player camera and will stick to it. This happens in VR, don't know if it's visible in 2D if you don't change your camera angles. Check the bug reports, this is not the only way to trigger it. Definitely a nasty bug that ruins your flight 100%.

Tried all you bug methods in VR, I had none of this issues at all except the searchlight one

Sent from my CPH2333 using Tapatalk

[RealDCSpilot]

When you read the notebook till the end you have to press the next line button one more time to trigger the bug. It's actually not the only method:

I found the broken ODA/NVG logic pretty quickly on my first night flight. Because having to switch between Pilot and Copilot with NVGs on and off all the time, you may also try to bring up the ODA for the Copilot too. But his NVG doesn't have it. If your Pilot's NVG is not activated at the moment you press the ODA button as Copilot it will be activated for the pilot when you switch back to his seat. From there the Pilot NVG will have two states: NVG on but no ODA and NVG off but ODA on. It's easy to replicate if you really want to.

[LuseKofte]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:35 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

The ODA is only available in the pilot's NVG. But if you switch between copilot and pilot seat several times, switching between NVG on and off and ODA on and off, you will eventually end up with NVG off but ODA on. Which shouldn't work because the ODA is a fixed part of the goggles. (It's a simple logic bug in their code)

This I too have Encountered also if you switch of nvg with ODA on you can loose the ODA all together. 

[Kinkkujuustovoileipä]

On 8/24/2024 at 7:35 AM, RealDCSpilot said:

No, i got no mods installed. All of them got reported shortly after release. You can replicate them on your end:

1. easy, turn on the search light and bring it forward. It's so bright that it even works in daylight. At night it's much better to see how crazy bright it is. Then fly around slightly tilted forward. You will see that it has a very limited range and is cut off.

2. The ODA is only available in the pilot's NVG. But if you switch between copilot and pilot seat several times, switching between NVG on and off and ODA on and off, you will eventually end up with NVG off but ODA on. Which shouldn't work because the ODA is a fixed part of the goggles. (It's a simple logic bug in their code)

3. Also easy to replicate. Never checked this in SP, but in MP. Just go to the notebook page on your MFD. Read the mission briefing till the end. From there all digital cockpit display elements will snap to the object space of the player camera and will stick to it. This happens in VR, don't know if it's visible in 2D if you don't change your camera angles. Check the bug reports, this is not the only way to trigger it. Definitely a nasty bug that ruins your flight 100%.

 

1) Art issue. I can't speak for this or any other art issues, sorry.

2) Known issue, I believe resolved internally already or tracked to be fixed.

3) DCS issue. Believed to be linked to DLSS settings. Reported to ED on the 6th of June, nothing has happened since.

Look, I understand your concerns and frustration. But the idea that we're not doing anything about it is false. You only have to look at our WIP changelog to see that.

Bugs happen. I don't think you can judge us negatively on releasing with some bugs compared to any other module. What matters is that we are addressing them. It takes time because we do so methodically and carefully, and the update release process has been chaotic until recently due to the CH-47 and other changes. I will not release an update until it has been fully tested to my satisfaction, and until now there has not been a release window large enough to allow that.

Again, I can only speak for code issues. But do not think the art issues you raise have not gone unnoticed. I just can't provide any answer to those at this time.
null

[RealDCSpilot]

3 hours ago, Kinkkujuustovoileipä said:

concerns and frustration

Mostly come from releasing the product explicitly not in EA. Why raising expectations when the company already has a record about problems with attitude and sanity. As far as i remember, that claim about "it will be not in EA when released" was made before you joined the company and basically saved most of it's reputation.

Edited August 26, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[Vakarian]

Not EA release != bug-free release.

There will never be a bug free state of software and people need to get down to earth if they think they'll get a bug free module no matter how many years it's in development and no matter who develops it.

[BoFrost]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Vakarian:

Not EA release != bug-free release.

There will never be a bug free state of software and people need to get down to earth if they think they'll get a bug free module no matter how many years it's in development and no matter who develops it.

Sure, 

But releasing an module explizit not in EA, forces the expectation that at least major Bugs will not Pop up.

At the release of this module, it feels more than all the other EA's. Beta test by customer. Just remember the reports from users at release time.

I totally agree. No software will be Bug free. And I am happy, that the devs will update when they are happy with the new Version. But for me and others as it seems, it feels as an EA and therefore the modul pricing is to high at release time. 

They should have released it as EA with a discount you then normally get, and I guess, there would have been much less discussion about quality and Bugs. 

 

Frank

[Vakarian]

So the bottom line is, if the module was 10-20$ cheaper, most of people wouldn't complain about the bugs? Yeah right, I don't believe that for a second. Call me however you want, but it just looks to me most of the people are rear-end hurt because they had to pay full price outright.

[freehand]

1 hour ago, Vakarian said:

So the bottom line is, if the module was 10-20$ cheaper, most of people wouldn't complain about the bugs? Yeah right, I don't believe that for a second. Call me however you want, but it just looks to me most of the people are rear-end hurt because they had to pay full price outright.

About 2 to 3 coffees in the UK lol. 

[RealDCSpilot]

Well, we pay for the product, we do not get paid for spending time on testing and finding bugs. If something is marked as EA i expect bugs and treat them differently. PC is a special case here, bold claims are getting easily offending against customers because of their history.
Selling a helicopter module and delivering the flight model 7 years later, just to remind you. And it's better to embrace early adopters, give them a little discount and let them help you detecting and ironing out the quirks.
The poorly done texture job, this is something i absolutely didn't expect from being delivered as finished product. It's really embarrassing. Plus the comment we get from PC "we don't care, we fly from inside the cockpit...".

Edited August 27, 2024 by RealDCSpilot

[Vakarian]

14 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Well, we pay for the product, we do not get paid for spending time on testing and finding bugs. 

I paid for a product and I'm using it every day. Just because there are bugs doesn't mean I cannot fly it. EA is a frigging label that means absolutely nothing anymore. 

 

15 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

PC is a special case here, bold claims are getting easily offending against customers because of their history. Selling a helicopter module and delivering the flight model 7 years later, just to remind you. 

I don't need reminders, I was here and been through it. 

 

16 minutes ago, RealDCSpilot said:

And the poorly done texture job, this is something i absolutely didn't expect from being delivered as finished product. It's really embarrassing. Plus the comment we get from PC "we don't care, we fly from inside the cockpit...".

Oh my, I can't explain how little I care about this. Maybe I can. For starters, my GPU is happy because it doesn't have to load 10+ GB of textures so I have some space for other things like when Apache, Chinook, Phantom and Tomcat comes into play with their textures like they are the only module that exists.

Their comment is correct, we fly from the inside and that is pretty solid enough for what we use. Maybe if they add in MipMaps so the bit of AA gets removed but honestly what else do you need? Chinook level textures so that I have to wait for 5 minutes to load in and murder my GPU for the one minute of jaw dropping details and then for few hours of ignoring such details because I'm focused on flying that thing, not looking if the scratches are visible and every individual flecks of paint are here.

I play DCS to fly combat machines, play army men and shoot stuff at virtual enemies. I don't care if the enemy is Hi-rez or Low-rez, it makes no frigging difference at all for my experience as I'll likely see it through a sensor from far away. 

[RealDCSpilot]

Then i don't want to see how your car looks like...

[Vakarian]

It's a tool to get me where I want to go and carry stuff I don't want to carry by hand, not an object that I'll slave over

[RealDCSpilot]

1 hour ago, Vakarian said:

Their comment is correct, we fly from the inside and that is pretty solid enough for what we use. Maybe if they add in MipMaps so the bit of AA gets removed but honestly what else do you need? Chinook level textures so that I have to wait for 5 minutes to load in and murder my GPU

Maybe you didn't understand that the textures on the outside are not the only problem. Many instruments and parts of the cockpit got a 4K texture set too, but only taking up a quarter of the texture space. Usually a texture artist combines the use of this texture space by putting 4 different objects in it to use it efficiently. So this texture needs to be loaded one time only to cover 4 objects. Instead of four times the loading time for each single object we have right now.

[Vakarian]

Oh, I understood it and didn't comment on the optimization side of it (ask 10 people in the industry how to optimize stuff, you'll get at least 10 different answers). I was mainly talking about the "looks" as that's what most people care about and I'd say it's far from unusable as some people would like to portray it.

Can it be better, sure it can. Everything can be made better with some time put into it, question is is it worth it at that particular point in time.

[Mainstay]

If it’s good enough for you then congrats. For a lot of customers a sub par job of a so called “completed” module is just a big no no. 
 

Didn’t even know they reacted “we fly from inside the cockpit”…. Even more reason not to spend my money on them. 
 

A well.. their loss. 

[Kinkkujuustovoileipä]

This is getting a bit silly now, so I'm asking you to all stop being Cassandraic and take a step back.

Early Access does not refer to quality or bugs or even performance. It simply refers to the amount of completed features at release vs. the planned amount for the product. In that sense, the Kiowa is not considered Early Access since all the features we planned for the module are implemented with one or two exceptions that have already been discussed. Compare this to other modules where you're still waiting for various weapons or whatever feature five or six years later.

I want to be super clear here - I am not saying the module doesn't need improvement, or that there aren't issues to be looked at and addressed. I'm simply saying that arguing it is an Early Access release because of these issues is factually incorrect. Your definition of what Early Access means is not what is used by Polychop or Eagle Dynamics, or any software developer or game studio I've been a part of in my career. It is about delivery of planned features, that is all. Quality is not a *feature* (although I would absolutely agree the world would be better if it was, and I personally try to push that where I can - hence WHY the fixes are taking longer than you want).

As for "Didn’t even know they reacted “we fly from inside the cockpit”…. Even more reason not to spend my money on them." - I don't know where this came from, nor do I care. It's not my opinion, therefore as long as I am part of Polychop it's not fair to say it is the opinion OF Polychop. No matter what someone else may have said.

I've said this earlier, I will repeat it again:

We have listened to what you've said, we're aware of the issues and we are currently working out how to address them. I can't give you better answers than that because I am not the artist, I'm sorry.

All I can ask for now is patience. I know you don't have it. I certainly don't either