Moved from Patch Wishlist 1.13 thread

[Breakshot]

This thread has been pretty much artificially created by a moderator... who obviosly enjoys abusing his powers on those he doesnt agree with...

 

 

In other words, disregard this thread completely, as it was a reply to the "Patch Request Thread" taken and moved here, completely out of context, to create some sort of mockery...

 

 

Breakshot out!

Edited May 5, 2009 by Breakshot

[104th_Crunch]

Well I know ED has gone for balance in the past. I hope however, seeing as DCS is all about realism, that their direction even for this patch is all about realism. If that means F-15 dominance, so what. Mission planners can address that, number of F-15s available etc. IMO.

[Shaman]

Su-27 - I'd like to see it able to paint targets for buddy's semi actives, and be able to track and attack 2 targets at once with semi-actives =p

[Breakshot]

Good news regarding possible patch... if it does indeed materialize... ghmm ghmm.... i will keep my fingers crossed... :)

Edited May 5, 2009 by Breakshot

[Wilde]

ECM blinking and chaff effectiveness need to be addressed. ECM blinking should achieve nothing basically despite maybe disabling TWS abilities and denying precise range recognition. It should not break lock or even worse make the board computer switch to EOS! That's very annoying.

And chaffs should be much more inefficient, especially against SARH missiles. Those should be homing to the target painted by the launching aircraft, not some aluminum foil flying around somewhere.

[Pilotasso]

 

Now, one thing to note however as i read above on the gazillion "improvements" that are so mysteriosly always geared on improving the F15 which eagle fanboys always so aggressively pursue on these forums is.... balance!

 

The F15 is already hands down and outright the best performing bird in the sim, even with its well known deficiencies... and please dont try to prove me otherwise as HL stats do say something even if they are skewed towards airquake style of flying, and in team scenario this bird can be practically unbeatable. Usually it is more a matter of pilots just not knowing on how to exploit the full potential of this bird rather than actuall faults in its perfomance... so of course they resort on looking at the "flaws" of the sim, rather than looking for ways on improving their flying...

 

Now as we have guys like Yoda put up LRM mods, that arguably are mostly geared towards improving F15 even further, while actually greatly reducing the capabilities of Russian fighters, we run risk of having a sim where everyone starts flying the Eagle... Maple flag flights are a good latest example as we had eagles flying all over the place... both blue and red. Which, imo made the event alittle dull in that respect...

 

So, if i was a full time Eagle driver id think about that for a second. Do you really want just fighting other Eagles in a multiplayer environment? Because it seems that having a more or less balanced situation as it is now never seems to fit your belly... so we all want the eagle to pwn all dont we? cmon, think again!

 

Yes, there is the argument of realism at play here, and its obvious that the RL F15 is a very very capable bird... but i dont have to tell you that its also obvious that this sim was created by ED with the notion of "balanced" sides from the start, take the capability of Mig-29S as an example, they far outstretch the true RL capability of this fighter in game...

 

 

So, with that said, if the patch does come in the near future. Id put my money on ED maintaining this balance, while fixing certain bugs and issues that are indeed a pain (such as ECM blinking for example)....

 

Anyway, the message is this, F15 fanboys... dont keep your hopes to high, because u are bound to be disappointed as i know all too well the nature of your greedy character! :P

 

Cheers!

 

 

Break... Its not aiming at improving the F-15 alone...your much mistakened. Its for realism, and not balance. For that you should go for H.A.W.X instead if it fits you better.

 

The AIM-120C is NOT a mach 2.5 missile, its a mach 4+ missile. And, the R-27ET is NOT maddogable, neither do the R-77 or AMRAAM should have 180 degrees instant search pattern, it bothers me and everybody else too that the missiles launches are not supported.

High altitude underpowered engines affect all planes simirlarly.

 

I thought that sould have been made clear. I think its unfair for you now to come here and call F-15 drivers fanboys specialy considering what I just wrote above and that many people who you labeled fanboys are talented enough to fly other planes and usualy do online. Albeit not explicit, it is easy to gess whom you are adressing these comments to. I regret that you did so.

 

Cheers.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Pilotasso

[topol-m]

ECM blinking and chaff effectiveness need to be addressed. ECM blinking should achieve nothing basically despite maybe disabling TWS abilities and denying precise range recognition. It should not break lock or even worse make the board computer switch to EOS! That's very annoying.

And chaffs should be much more inefficient, especially against SARH missiles. Those should be homing to the target painted by the launching aircraft, not some aluminum foil flying around somewhere.

 

Also ECM should affect the AI the same way it affects human players. When i play against the AI i have the feeling there is no difference if i`m using ECM or not.

[RvEYoda]

Good news regarding possible patch... if it does indeed materialize... ghmm ghmm.... i will keep my fingers crossed... :)

 

 

Now, one thing to note however as i read above on the gazillion "improvements" that are so mysteriosly always geared on improving the F15 which eagle fanboys always so aggressively pursue on these forums is.... balance!

 

The F15 is already hands down and outright the best performing bird in the sim, even with its well known deficiencies... and please dont try to prove me otherwise as HL stats do say something even if they are skewed towards airquake style of flying, and in team scenario this bird can be practically unbeatable. Usually it is more a matter of pilots just not knowing on how to exploit the full potential of this bird rather than actuall faults in its perfomance... so of course they resort on looking at the "flaws" of the sim, rather than looking for ways on improving their flying...

 

Now as we have guys like Yoda put up LRM mods, that arguably are mostly geared towards improving F15 even further, while actually greatly reducing the capabilities of Russian fighters, we run risk of having a sim where everyone starts flying the Eagle... Maple flag flights are a good latest example as we had eagles flying all over the place... both blue and red. Which, imo made the event alittle dull in that respect...

 

So, if i was a full time Eagle driver id think about that for a second. Do you really want just fighting other Eagles in a multiplayer environment? Because it seems that having a more or less balanced situation as it is now never seems to fit your belly... so we all want the eagle to pwn all dont we? cmon, think again!

 

Yes, there is the argument of realism at play here, and its obvious that the RL F15 is a very very capable bird... but i dont have to tell you that its also obvious that this sim was created by ED with the notion of "balanced" sides from the start, take the capability of Mig-29S as an example, they far outstretch the true RL capability of this fighter in game...

 

 

So, with that said, if the patch does come in the near future. Id put my money on ED maintaining this balance, while fixing certain bugs and issues that are indeed a pain (such as ECM blinking for example)....

 

Anyway, the message is this, F15 fanboys... dont keep your hopes to high, because u are bound to be disappointed as i know all too well the nature of your greedy character! :P

 

Cheers!

 

 

Well Breakshot, the question really, do you aim to improve the simulation

depth of the game or keep the artificial limitations on planes where there

should not be any, in an attempt to make all birds seem more equal?

 

That said, I do wish your post is not referring to my own list, cause I count

no more than two actual EAGLE only improvements that I don't see

as bug fixes/Must fix or general for all planes. (nr 4 and 5 in the avionics list)

 

Break, in what way does LRM make russian birds worse!?

In our LRM server HL do you know what is funny for the past 2 days?

It was smack full, with mostly russian people playing in there, russian planes!

And they kill the others, big time, in fact there were almost no eagles present.

And did you also remember in Maple Flag, the 4 most scoring pilots on REd side were

flying......Oh my......Russian planes!!! The red eagles were actually doing the worst :)

 

Let me give the improvements that only the eagle get...

IFF

Radar follows target (so you dont manually have to slew the redar even if you have a lock...which is stupid)

Possibly target step mod

 

Thats it. Nothing else is just eagle.

Chaff?

Su-27, cut 74->26

Mig, cut 40-20 or so

Eagle? Cut 120->32. <-- Woah? Did I actually limit the eagle most of all planes?

 

ECCM/anti blink?

That algorithm is even faster in the russian planes!

 

Then I remove 2 exploit, the barrell one and the unreal radar floor one, they are just as

important when flying eagle as ru birds. I guarantee if you fly eagles on your team and the

other team u were facing in team v team bvr were all good at these exploits, there would

not be a single ting you could do against them. Maybe exploit back.

 

.

Edited May 5, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[Kuky]

You can balance out the sides even if F-15 is uber by providing more aircraft to russian side (as they have in real life) and always have GCI on their side (as they have in real life)

[Breakshot]

@Pilotasso: Obviosly you didnt get my sarcastic tone when i said "fanboys", please dont take it as an insult because i was just merely trying to grab the F15 boys' attention... :music_whistling:

 

My point stands however, F15 is the most effective plane in the sim already, yet we have a hundred, "120s dont work", "perfomance isnt there", yadi yadi posts... Meanwhile, we dont see that regarding the Russian birds, now do we?

 

Nor do i see anything like that on the Russian part of the forums...

 

Thats all i wanted to point out... ED, has the final say on tha patch, we are just left here to speculate, and of course we will take what comes... if it comes!

[Wilde]

Break, in what way does LRM make russian birds worse!?

 

I know you do it for good intentions, but forbidding the use of ETs cripples one of the most important Russian tactics. It is impossible to launch salvos with mixed seekers in BVR this way. And that's very unrealistic and a massive boost to the F-15. Wouldn't it be more realistic to remap the "launch override" feature to "jettison missiles" as it is in real life? Anyways, this should probably be discussed in your thread.

[Pilotasso]

@Pilotasso: Obviosly you didnt get my sarcastic tone when i said "fanboys", please dont take it as an insult because i was just merely trying to grab the F15 boys' attention... :music_whistling:

 

My point stands however, F15 is the most effective plane in the sim already, yet we have a hundred, "120s dont work", "perfomance isnt there", yadi yadi posts... Meanwhile, we dont see that regarding the Russian birds, now do we?

 

Nor do i see anything like that on the Russian part of the forums...

 

Thats all i wanted to point out... ED, has the final say on tha patch, we are just left here to speculate, and of course we will take what comes... if it comes!

 

Break, the tone of your message just isnt right, sarcasm or not, yiu mixed in the rest of the text, it causes doubts.

 

As for missiles missing, I have read as many complaints about he R-27*R series just as I did for the AMRAAM. Chaff and noise sensitivity is not properly adjusted. But the issue of the AMRAAM is not only that but its extremely slow missile wich exposes it to ECM the longest.

 

Balance the planes is not the way to go, whyl fly the same aircraft with different 3D skins?

 

F-15 is not the most efficient plane in the SIM. By flying it and the Su-27 for example. I come out empty in half of my Eagle sorties while in the flanker (not to mention the Mig-raptorski) I always bring back kills using the R-27ER. Considering the AMRAAM is the most modern missile and that in the flanker Im using outdated SARH missiles, does it make sense?

 

The F-15 only real advantage is its radar and thats supposed to be reflected as well.

[RvEYoda]

I know you do it for good intentions, but forbidding the use of ETs cripples one of the most important Russian tactics. It is impossible to launch salvos with mixed seekers in BVR this way. And that's very unrealistic and a massive boost to the F-15. Wouldn't it be more realistic to remap the "launch override" feature to "jettison missiles" as it is in real life? Anyways, this should probably be discussed in your thread.

 

Once again, LRM does not forbid ETs.

 

Our server does, NOT LRM. Server admins can configure LRM

to any set of payloads, like heaters only!

 

Wilde what you suggest cannot be done, simply because lockon lua

exports dont allow us.

 

AGAIN Once again, LRM does not forbid ETs.

 

LRM does not forbid overriding ETs.

Edited May 5, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[Pilotasso]

I know you do it for good intentions, but forbidding the use of ETs cripples one of the most important Russian tactics. It is impossible to launch salvos with mixed seekers in BVR this way. And that's very unrealistic and a massive boost to the F-15. Wouldn't it be more realistic to remap the "launch override" feature to "jettison missiles" as it is in real life? Anyways, this should probably be discussed in your thread.

 

 

R-27ET is not a BVR missile, hence its not a russian "essential BVR tactic". R-27ET is a chasse missile and a missile to be used against heavy radar ECM jamming.

 

LRM aims at preventing this missile to be used as if it was an IR AMRAAM, wich it isnt. Further more the skies are rarely clear and the real seekers cant see through mist or clouds.

[RvEYoda]

R-27ET is not a BVR missile, hence its not a russian "essential BVR tactic". R-27ET is a chasse missile and a missile to be used against heavy radar ECM jamming.

 

LRM aims at preventing this missile to be used as if it was an IR AMRAAM, wich it isnt. Further more the skies are rarely clear and the real seekers cant see through mist or clouds.

 

What he said, but lrm still doesnt remove the ET :P

[Wilde]

Our server does, NOT LRM.

Yeah well, that's what I meant to say. The reason you once told me was because it's being abused and something else you weren't so specific about.

 

Didn't know the override feature was not moddable.

 

R-27ET is not a BVR missile

Yes it is.

[Pilotasso]

^^^^ok Im debunked. Indestructible argument there :D

[RvEYoda]

ET is not a BVR missile against hot aspect fighter type targets.

Edited May 5, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[Wilde]

ET was never designed as a hot aspect BVR missile against fighter type targets.

 

I know that. But if you have a SARH incoming from your twelve you're not going to crash into it on purpose, are you?

[Kuky]

Well Pilotasso, since ET's range is quite high in some cases it can be used BVR... simply because if you fire it and you still don't see the aircraft it becomes BVR... guess you could argue either way.

 

Anyway, LRM mod does not solve many many things... I hope the patch does... Eagle is tough but only in certain situations. The actual combat environment under which it's used does not reflect map setups in LockOn servers... well same for russian aircraft.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Kuky

[Pilotasso]

One of the Soviet tactics was to use it against supersonic bombers, their IR signature is going to be a lot bigger and can be seen for much further away than fighters, in tail chase facing heavy ECM.

 

R-27ET can be fired against fighters but its seeker is limited by weather and more importantly target aspect an throttle setting.

 

A Hot glow can be seen some 18km away in clear skies, but if your heading straight at the target there wont be enough IR signature to use it BVR, not by a long shot. In a cloudy day, its useless, therefore its not used at BVR missile except for very specific scenarios. In my book that cannot constitute a "essential BVR" missile nor tactic.

 

As far as I recall it the salvo tactic can be applied to SARH types only as much as IR/SARH mixed ones, and its meant to improve PK as much as it is to balancing the aircraft in flight during combat. (huge missiles and no FBW remenber?).

 

Not doing so results on fighter that wants to roll all the time, after trimming and having taken the next launch the problem arises again and again.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Pilotasso

[RvEYoda]

Some new advanced irst pod for dutch F-16s were able to see other

F-16s, given they already knew where it was.

 

The sky was clear, the detection range never much exceeded 10 nm and the target was not using

afterburners. Most of all they were already aware of where it was. ALso note the target

was not head on, in such a case it would have even further decreased the range.

The Russian's own newer model EOS is specified to track head on targets around at least 15 km iirc.

 

This irst system has much better resolution and capabilities than any IR

missile seeker for a number of reasons. One of them naturally being size,

and size REALLY matters in optics. It's one of the basic things of any

optical/IR/etc tracking system. I know this because I work with it and

a lot more people know this as well in this forum :)

 

Given the real bvr missiles like R-27ER/R77/Amraam are likely (if used properly) to impact

their target even before visual range (~10nm at best) is reached, it would not be a wise

decision to rely on the ET as a BVR missile

 

Taken from someone that has access to these numbers: The amraam in lo has about half

the kinetic capability of what the real amraam-b has.

This also fits well with ballistics simulations run and other sims implementations. Given that we

also KNOW the lockon amraam almost precisely matches real aim9Ls (predecessor to 9m) speed and energy profile in flight from both

US test documents and russian aircraft manuals, it becomes quite simple to draw conclusions.

So it would be likely to assume the Ru missiles are at least also a lot longer legged than their lo counterparts,

at least the r-77

Edited May 5, 2009 by =RvE=Yoda

[RvEYoda]

from 15 km maddog/not holding lock is quite realistic.

 

Firing maddog considerable distances outside ARH range is not.

 

Breaking lock before pitbull is fully realistic as long as the target does not

maneuver, however the scan zone/relock algorithm is too powerful so it

breaks the game again, but then if you reduce that without dealing with

optimizations to it and the chaff/beam code, missiles will be come so weak

nobody would ever defend at all. It really needs to be fixed not at all

or all he way down to that level, else we get the shit.

[Frostie]

Strange you should say that when you know full well that in LO you just need to fire an AMRAAM without even knowing where the bandit is and the missile will find it for you even if he isn't anywhere near your Boresight. Not too realistic IMO.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Frostie

[Wilde]

One of the Soviet tactics was to use it against supersonic bombers, their IR signature is going to be a lot bigger and can be seen for much further away than fighters, in tail chase facing heavy ECM.

 

R-27ET can be fired against fighters but its seeker is limited by weather and more importantly target aspect an throttle setting.

 

A Hot glow can be seen some 18km away in clear skies, but if your heading straight at the target there wont be enough IR signature to use it BVR, not by a long shot. In a cloudy day, its useless, therefore its not used at BVR missile except for very specific scenarios. In my book that cannot constitute a "essential BVR" missile nor tactic.

 

As far as I recall it the salvo tactic can be applied to SARH types only as much as IR/SARH mixed ones, and its meant to improve PK as much as it is to balancing the aircraft in flight during combat. (huge missiles and no FBW remenber?).

 

Not doing so results on fighter that wants to roll all the time, after trimming and having taken the next launch the problem arises again and again.

Are you making all this up right from the tip of your nose?

 

The ET is not an anti-supersonic-bomber missile. Why? It has the same range as the ER. Assuming you were right about the pointlessness of IR-missiles in BVR, then why would the Russians waste an ET for a job that can be done with an ER just as well? This doesn't make sense.

 

The stuff about balancing the plane is hilarious. The Flanker has a FBW control system. It will not roll because of there being 4 missiles on its right and 5 missiles on its left. That is not the reason for salvoing missiles.

 

Also the IR ranges are not the same anymore as they were 20 years ago. The NVA MiGs taken over by the Bundeswehr were said to be having 8nm range for their IRSTs. They were equipped with R-73s which had seekers that could lock onto it's target from some 5-6nm. But that was 20 years ago and it was "export gear" back then already. Modern IRST system are claimed to have ranges of 100km (45km head-on). Modern seekers are claimed to have ranges of 45km (18km head-on). Such seekers are good enough for BVR, if the missiles is guided in similarly to an AMRAAM and if the target is forced to break away.

 

And while it's true, that IR is not suitable in a cloud one also gotta say, that there is not always clouds everwhere. And even less often there are many clouds at 4+ km altitude. Especially in large parts of Russia, and even more so during Russian winter. I think you can figure this out yourself.

 

And now you made me write this without me actually wanting an improvement to the heaters. Have you been trolling me?