Best PC manufacturers for flight sim?

[EightyDuce]

19 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Yeah...except that (as I've now mentioned, several times) most of these vendors (certainly neither Origin nor CyberPower) do not actually offer 24/7 support (nor do the other vendors, I bet). Sure they have an email address you can write, or AI chat bots that will respond any time.

Sorry, that's not 24/7 support, and I'm surprised people here are still claiming it is.

There is also the question of the quality of support you actually get.  Let's just say the guys answering the phones aren't exactly top-tier technical assets.  (If they are, they aren't working the Help Desk lmao)

Businesses can and have gone under, so that's not fool proof either.

And to be brutally honest, if a machine you bought requires that much "support" to begin with, I'd say something's wrong with the machine, the user, or both.

Everyone will have to do their own calculus based on their own needs for whatever level of support they feel they need.

However, while the companies mentioned may not offer 24/7 support, the likelihood of an individual having a life changing event that impacts their ability or desire to continue provinding support vs. an established company is significantly greater.

Anyway, this horse feels pretty well dead at this point.

[EightyDuce]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

I agree in general, but not all 4090s are the same (at all).  Guaranteed if you buy a prebuilt, it's going to come with one of the worst board designs - which matters, and cannot be measured by looking at FPS numbers.  Google 4090 bad board design if you don't believe me.  Specifically, a lot of prebuilts come with Zotac cards, which are known to be among the worst board designs.  AsRock boards are pretty crappy, too.

Also, no point in putting a PCIe 4.0 drive on a board you're paying for PCIe 5.0 M2 slots on.  Don't scrimp.  I wouldn't say money is no object, but I do agree that it's worth looking at the Crucial T700/705 even though they cost more.  (I own two and have worked with several others).  Also, it is far better to have separate drives for the OS and games.  Get a smaller cheaper Gen4 drive for booting, and a separate 2TB Gen 5 drive is enough for DCS.

Max efficiency in a switch mode PSU is 50%.  I don't think that's changed.  That said, I agree a high-quality 1000W unit from a reputable company is a good choice.

(PS I believe it's "AGESA")

I did not say all 4090's are the same. I said they will all perform within 5-7% (might be off by a couple of %) of each other; limiting factors being cooling ability and power-limit set by the manufacturer in the bios. I do agree that they are not all built the same, as I also mentioned that several manufacturers use higher quality components. I am aware Zotac has had some issues with PCB cracking that were vented out on YouTube by several repair folks, but may be there is more that I am not aware of (I am just a rando on the internet). At the end of the day, each 4090 has to meet an Nvidia spec, simple as that; for everything else, there's the warranty period. Do some manufacturers exceed the minimum spec required? Sure.

As far as storage, you want the fastest possible storage for OS, where there are tons of small reads/writes...an Optane drive would be ideal, but alas, Intel killed it. There is very little downside to a single, large partitioned drive. On a board like some of the B650E's that only have 1 Gen 5 PCIe NVme slot, it allows you to run fastest storage possible for both the OS as well as your application drive utilizing a single slot and 4 lanes. One argument I could concede to is data protection and losing both OS and data/application partitions if a drive dies rather than either or with two separate drives. As far as using a PCIe Gen4 drive in a Gen 5 slot, the "point" of it would depend on several factors such as ones needs, desires and available finance. If you can't afford a Gen 5 drive in your capacity or simply don't need gen 5 speeds but your board has a 5.0 slot, why would you not use a Gen 4 drive with the desired capacity that is in your price range? A price between a premium Gen 4 drive and Gen 5 drive can be significant, not to mention the ability to keep it (gen 5 drive) cool as to not degrade the controller and flash. Another consideration for multiple drives is the finite availability of PCIe lanes before you're kicked over to the chipset or before you start taking away lanes from PCIe slots (should you need them). Again, all these decisions are based on several factors and no one solution is best in all cases. One can get into the "what if" weeds really quick to the detriment of the overall discussion and original intent of the thread.

For the PSU efficiency, I don't know if there is hard cutoff at lets as you say 50%, from my understanding most reputable PSU's have a plateau in the efficiency curve between 40-80%...thus my statement on "under 80%". But I haven't gone into the PSU efficiency rabbit hole as some may have.

You're 100% correct on the "AGESA" spelling...that's my bad. 

[SharpeXB]

FWIW Origin PC indeed has lifetime 24/7 US-based support. I’ve been able to talk to a real person any time I call even at 1am on Saturday (literally). I’ve dealt with some whoppers this year like the Intel chip degradation and such and they’ve been invaluable. 

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

FWIW Origin PC indeed has lifetime 24/7 US-based support. I’ve been able to talk to a real person any time I call even at 1am on Saturday (literally). I’ve dealt with some whoppers this year like the Intel chip degradation and such and they’ve been invaluable. 

Then one has to wonder why their website doesn't say that.  As I said above (and posted a pic directly from their website), it clearly says 6am-8pm PST. As I said previously maybe it changed since you bought from them.  Maybe you paid extra (more still ???). Don't know. What I know is what their site says, and it does not say 24/7:

null

(Incidentally, since they're the ones who sold you the Intel CPU in the first place, well...).  Best case, they were obligated to support it - and as we used to say in the good old USN: You don't get a medal for doing your job.

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

57 minutes ago, EightyDuce said:

I did not say all 4090's are the same. I said they will all perform within 5-7% (might be off by a couple of %) of each other; limiting factors being cooling ability and power-limit set by the manufacturer in the bios. I do agree that they are not all built the same, as I also mentioned that several manufacturers use higher quality components. I am aware Zotac has had some issues with PCB cracking that were vented out on YouTube by several repair folks, but may be there is more that I am not aware of (I am just a rando on the internet). At the end of the day, each 4090 has to meet an Nvidia spec, simple as that; for everything else, there's the warranty period. Do some manufacturers exceed the minimum spec required? Sure.

As far as storage, you want the fastest possible storage for OS, where there are tons of small reads/writes...an Optane drive would be ideal, but alas, Intel killed it. There is very little downside to a single, large partitioned drive. On a board like some of the B650E's that only have 1 Gen 5 PCIe NVme slot, it allows you to run fastest storage possible for both the OS as well as your application drive utilizing a single slot and 4 lanes. One argument I could concede to is data protection and losing both OS and data/application partitions if a drive dies rather than either or with two separate drives. As far as using a PCIe Gen4 drive in a Gen 5 slot, the "point" of it would depend on several factors such as ones needs, desires and available finance. If you can't afford a Gen 5 drive in your capacity or simply don't need gen 5 speeds but your board has a 5.0 slot, why would you not use a Gen 4 drive with the desired capacity that is in your price range? A price between a premium Gen 4 drive and Gen 5 drive can be significant, not to mention the ability to keep it (gen 5 drive) cool as to not degrade the controller and flash. Another consideration for multiple drives is the finite availability of PCIe lanes before you're kicked over to the chipset or before you start taking away lanes from PCIe slots (should you need them). Again, all these decisions are based on several factors and no one solution is best in all cases. One can get into the "what if" weeds really quick to the detriment of the overall discussion and original intent of the thread.

For the PSU efficiency, I don't know if there is hard cutoff at lets as you say 50%, from my understanding most reputable PSU's have a plateau in the efficiency curve between 40-80%...thus my statement on "under 80%". But I haven't gone into the PSU efficiency rabbit hole as some may have.

You're 100% correct on the "AGESA" spelling...that's my bad. 

I think you don't fully understand the board assembly and approval process.  It is not as simple as you apparently think. I was referring to the board design, which includes the components actually used - and my particular reference has nothing to do with cracking substrates.

On the PSU, I believe it's accurate that all switch mode PSUs are most efficient at 50% load, as I said - but I welcome any reference you have that shows otherwise.

It would also appear you don't have a complete understanding of storage subsystem performance.  Factually the more drives, the better performance*. This is true because of "resource contention" which can be readily observed.  More drives = less time spent satisfying data load, which increases availability, thus improving performance.  In storage subsystems, performance is always a function of availability, and availability is increased with more drives*

*(with proper configuration...simply *having* multiple drives doesn't count).

All the rest of the stuff you mentioned (cooling, PCIe lanes) is a matter of good component selection and installation - and simply illustrates the importance of a good builder who knows what he's doing.  Offering a WD Blue drive with a PCIe 5 capable Zen4 build (as tge CyberPower site does) doesn't strike me as something that's really preferred.  Yes, if "cheap" is the goal, sure...but then none of these prebuilt vendors even come close to what I'd call "cheap" 

That's exactly my point: they charge premium prices for hardware that just doesn't warrant the high price. And the reason is simple: they make a ton in profit.  That's it.

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[EightyDuce]

6 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

I think you don't fully understand the board assembly and approval process.  It is not as simple as you apparently think. I was referring to the board design, which includes the components actually used - and my particular reference has nothing to do with cracking substrates.

On the PSU, I believe it's accurate that all switch mode PSUs are most efficient at 50% load, as I said - but I welcome any reference you have that shows otherwise.

It would also appear you don't have a complete understanding of storage subsystem performance.  Factually the more drives, the better performance*. Thus is true because of "resource contention" which can be readily observed.  More drives = less time spent satisfying data load, which increases availability, thus improving performance.  In storage subsystems, performance is always a function of availability, and availability is increased with more drives*

*(with proper configuration...simply *having* multiple drives doesn't count).

All the rest of the stuff you mentioned (cooling, PCIe lanes) is a matter of good component selection and installation - and simply illustrates the importance of a good builder who knows what he's doing.  Offering a WD Blue drive with a PCIe 5 capable Zen4 build doesn't strike me as something that's really preferred.  Yes, if cheap ux tge goal, sure...but then none of these prebuilt vendors even come to what I'd call cheap

That's exactly my point: they charge premium prices for hardware that just doesn't warrant the high price. And the reason is simple: they make a ton in profit.  That's it.

 

I suppose anything is possible.  

[Iron Sights]

On the topic, if you don’t have time do it yourself. I have used Cyberpower and they work fine just make sure you check and change anything that doesn’t meet your taste. Last time, I went with a Corsair Vengeance last year and it doesn’t disappoint, but a bit more pricey, but worth it to me. Everything and more than you will need to run anything.

[kksnowbear]

2 hours ago, Iron Sights said:

just make sure you check and change anything that doesn’t meet your taste.

So out of curiosity: What if they don't actually offer a choice (or a choice that one finds acceptable)?

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[EL CARIBE]

2 hours ago, Iron Sights said:

On the topic, if you don’t have time do it yourself. I have used Cyberpower and they work fine just make sure you check and change anything that doesn’t meet your taste. Last time, I went with a Corsair Vengeance last year and it doesn’t disappoint, but a bit more pricey, but worth it to me. Everything and more than you will need to run anything.

This is precisely the type of response I was looking for.  Thanks!

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Then one has to wonder why their website doesn't say that.  As I said above (and posted a pic directly from their website), it clearly says 6am-8pm PST. As I said previously maybe it changed since you bought from them.  Maybe you paid extra (more still ???). Don't know. What I know is what their site says, and it does not say 24/7:

null

(Incidentally, since they're the ones who sold you the Intel CPU in the first place, well...).  Best case, they were obligated to support it - and as we used to say in the good old USN: You don't get a medal for doing your job.

 

Well they did have 24/7 before, that’s disappointing that this just changed. The support is still lifetime. And everyone was selling Intel 13th Gen CPUs years ago. It’s still a beautiful machine and runs DCS flawlessly, no complaints there.

Edited October 25, 2024 by SharpeXB

[EightyDuce]

4 hours ago, EL CARIBE said:

This is precisely the type of response I was looking for.  Thanks!

Not sure if might have already come across them in your search already or not, but another company that may be worth a look is Starforge Systems.

https://starforgesystems.com/

Haven't used them personally as I build my own, but they have had a couple of their builds reviewed by Gamers Nexus in their "Undercover" buys and were overall favorable as far as prebuilt go (check out GN YouTube forbthe vid reviews). Unfortunately I'm not sure if they would customize an order, but they're upfront about components used and have (allegedly) good support. Prices aren't agregious either, according the GN reviews about $400-500 above DIY (at least for the reviwed machines). Might be worth a look and an inquiry.

 

[kksnowbear]

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Well they did have 24/7 before, that’s disappointing that this just changed. The support is still lifetime.

Well, at least we got to the bottom of the "24/7" myth.

Lifetime support, that is only available during normal working hours?  Basically you're looking at taking a day off to be able to talk to someone.  Can't say I ever forced any of my clients to do that.

That's kinda the point, in fact: It gets brought up that a business is less likely to have problems maintaining a support commitment - you'll notice I don't argue that point.  But you can't just focus on half the discussion, either.  As I said, businesses do fail, so it's not foolproof.  And what about the quality of the support?  You're factually getting the lowest man on the totem pole when you call the Help Desk.  He's the guy who has a flip chart that starts with "Let's check to see it's plugged in".  He is limited by internal policy as to what he can and cannot do.

With me, any call is immediately handled by the CEO, Director of Support, and every other resource - including a 40+ year veteran of computerized systems support.  I am authorized to do whatever I want to satisfy a client, and there's no 'escalation' required.

As far as hours go, I can assure you I've worked all hours of the day and night, plus done 'house calls' (including multiple trips), and had clients come to the shop for testing, side-by-side with me, so that we could find/fix problems. In fact, I usually insist that a (local) client do exactly that before letting a machine go out, so that both of us can see it's working as expected - no surprises.

Factually, I have answered a call on Christmas Eve, from a client who I did a build for in another state.  This client paid $450 IIRC for a complete system, shipping included, two years prior to this event.  Within 24 hours (that's on Christmas day, if you're following) his problem was resolved.

In another instance, I was contacted after a couple years by a client who had a failed optical drive.  I shipped him a replacement drive, at no cost (even for the shipping), immediately.  This was also a system more than two years old.

These were used systems, explicitly sold at very low cost per client wishes, and with 90-day warranties (as is typical for used hardware).  Yet, after more than two years, I have factually jumped right in, dealt with the problems, and even covered shipping replacement parts.

I don't think these online vendors are going to do any of that.

Yes, there might be areas where a vendor has the advantage of being a company.  But you have to look at both sides of the coin:  There's plenty that I can and have done that a company's policies are never (ever) going to allow.

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

And everyone was selling Intel 13th Gen CPUs years ago.

Well...not everyone.  I sold quite a few AMD-based machines back then, as well as Intel machines *not* using the 13th or 14th gen, simply because I wasn't impressed with them.  See, unlike the vendors, I won't sell something if I can't tell a client I think it's a good deal.

However, that's not the point.  Earlier, you said:

22 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ve dealt with some whoppers this year like the Intel chip degradation and such and they’ve been invaluable. 

You've consistently brought up their support as the reason it's worth paying $1000+ more than the machine should cost.  (The prices have been confirmed by checking Origin, and their profit can be corroborated by the parent company's financial reporting).

But their support isn't what you've indicated.  Not only are the hours far less, but in the case of Intel chip degradation, they sold you the CPU.  Best case, they're obligated.  (God forbid they charged you to replace it!)

It's not above and beyond if they have to 'support' what they caused by selling you that system.  You don't get a medal for doing your job.  It's not exactly a shining example of stellar support if they have to correct something they stuck you with in the first place.

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

 The OP asked for advice that explicitly includes negatives:

21 hours ago, EL CARIBE said:

I'd like to know who others have tried and been happy with.. or not so happy with.

The request was not for only glowing, positive reviews of online vendors.  Independent/local builders were not excluded - which I maintain is a much better alternative.

I suppose, technically, one could argue that I haven't actually bought from one of these online vendors (nor would I).  But I have, on multiple occasions through many years, worked with people who made the mistake of buying these prebuilt machines and came to me to replace them.  I have factually worked inside these machines and seen first hand the kind of build quality, and it's been pretty bad at times. 

It's important to note these observations were echoed by others with similar experience in this area.

My comments are entirely on topic and intended to present a different perspective, with relevant fact and details to support that perspective.

Fact is, it's impossible to make an objective choice if we're just going to refuse to listen to differing perspectives.

But, as I said: Everyone's free to make their own choice.  I have long since indicated that if there's absolutely no other choice, then by all means go for it.

Just seems appropriate to me that in a hardware discussion forum, it's important to examine both sides of the question. 

The OP was wise enough to solicit "not so happy" responses as well.

Glowing, positive reviews are fine, but it's a bit disingenuous and misleading to exclude other views just because they're not agreeable to some.

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

Well, at least we got to the bottom of the "24/7" myth.

Not a myth, they actually had this up until perhaps a few months ago

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

Well...not everyone. 

Lots of people use these I’m sure. About 70% of gamers use Intel CPUs according to Steam. Aside from that trouble they were and still are among the top performing CPUs in sims like this. 

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

paying $1000+ more than the machine should cost.

More like $500 in my case, you’re exaggerating a bit

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

their profit can be corroborated by the parent company's financial disclosure statement

Every good company makes a profit. This fact isn’t nefarious.

1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

But their support isn't what you've indicated. 

How do you know? Do you have transcripts of my calls? Something like the CPU problem (which is not their fault) I wouldn’t be able to troubleshoot on my own. I was out of warranty by that point so I wasn’t looking for them to replace it, I actually had that done at a local shop. I imagine any PC vendor would have replaced that if you were within the warranty period.

I get it that you build PCs and your marketing strategy seems like you just go haunt sites like this and write wordy rants and criticize everyone else. Making wild attacks and assumptions. How’s that working for you? 
And your advice on this topic is hardly useful or unbiased as you’re only here to promote yourself.

Edited October 25, 2024 by SharpeXB

[LucShep]

[kksnowbear]

My comments are simply presenting other perspectives to topics.  What I post is backed up by supporting fact and corriborating evidence.  Impossible to be objective without considering both sides.

The support isn't 24/7 as you said.  Not wild accusation, fact.  Does it matter when it was changed? They don't offer it to someone buying now.  (My Dad bought a brand new Oldsmobile in 1972 for ~$4000.  Completely irrelevant to what buyers can get now.)  I do wonder, though - can you still call them outside their stated hours, or did they "take back" the 24/7 support they sold you on?

The financial records I cited serve to corroborate that, on a $4000 sale, these vendors are making ~$1000 (23% IIRC, do the math).  That's fact, right from the company's financial disclosure.  I'm not talking about a business simply making a profit, it's about how much.  Your $500 estimate is just that, an idea with no basis in fact.  By comparison, the company's financial records indicate a much higher number.

You said "everyone was selling" 13th Gen Intel CPUs.  Not true.

Apparently you paid to replace the defective CPU...Intel is replacing them for free.  Origin sold you the thing, and by the time yours failed, a responsible system integrator would definitely have known what was going on.  (According to the post below you replaced yours ~ April 2024, and the issue was already being widely reported and investigated by then):

The 13900k was released publicly in October 2022.  That's only two years ago, so yours would still be under the warranty they extended because of all the mess.

So, one has to wonder, then, why anyone would go to a third party and pay to replace something Origin has acknowledged was defective, especially if their support was all that great. Wouldn't it be much easier (and ~$500 cheaper) to have Origin honor their commitment?

See, the problem is that the details indicate a lot of what you say unfortunately just doesn't line up with the available facts.

I could go on and on but there's no point in presenting objective fact and supporting detail to anyone who just won't listen.

I would encourage the OP and others reading here to consider the facts carefully and to make an objective, informed decision.

(PS:  I've already indicated I have no interest in selling anything or promoting myself in this case.  My criticism of the vendors is backed up by factual details that can be easily verified.  Please leave the personal attacks and your opinions about my business out of it, they have nothing to do with anything here).

Edited October 25, 2024 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Yep. He’s back on the ignore list.

[BIGNEWY]

folks just stop please.