How does Chaff work?

[AKA_Clutter]

All,

 

How do it setup to dispense Chaff?

 

I have used the Payload screen to load 64 flares and 64 chaff. When I go in-game, I see 32 on the UV-26 display. Also when I hit the dispense button, only flares appear to come out when viewing the chopper from the F2 external view.

 

I looked for an explanation in the manuals, but didn't see one. Also, I could not see anything inside the cockpit that would allow one to chose between flares, chaff, or both.

 

Does anyone know how to deploy chaff?

 

Thanks,

[sobek]

Maybe the dispenser is only set up for flares. Chaff is useless for this helo anyway, since it has no RWR.

[Boberro]

Ka-50 can't deploy chaffs. However it is visible in payload screen it can't be dropped. I don't know why, it is same dispencer like in Su-25A (or maybe I am wrong, but i don't think so).

 

Maybe you can try browse some scripts and enable it.

[Kuro6]

Seems strange. Online their is talk of Ka-50 armed with both chaff and radar warning indicators (TWI). Also, I have seen at least three different cockpit layouts now. One for turkish erogdan, one for the night version, and one that seems to have been coverted to all digital readouts with three displays. If you have the space, I cannot see why you wouldn't put a TWI and chaff on a heli. Are you just supposed to ignore all the A-A and A-S radar missles out there? Only if you have a death wish. I for one really want to know went a fighter like the F16C locks me up with his radar or a ground unit like the Shielka lights me up. Good to know.

[HellMutt]

I believe at least part of the problem is that in the KA-50, there is not Radar Warning System, so you wouldn't know when to use chaff, so what good would it do you to load it instead of flares that will save you.

The version that is modelled is not the export version (so the Turkish version does not apply) and I suppose the night version and the other one are also not the version that ED modelled here.

[GGTharos]

ED modeled a particular version of the Ka-50 that they had access to. It is also, IIRC, the version that is in service - ie. not a prototype but an actual combat machine. ED did so with the help of Russian Aviation pilots and Kamov. The Ka-50 is NOT meant to fly where there is particularly capable enemy air defense, be it airborne or otherwise. It was designed for a time far gone and even when it was shelved, it needed to be improved - it wasn't, and its main role right now is special forces support and anti-terrorist operations.

 

This is realism: You fight with what you've got.

 

Seems strange. Online their is talk of Ka-50 armed with both chaff and radar warning indicators (TWI). Also, I have seen at least three different cockpit layouts now. One for turkish erogdan, one for the night version, and one that seems to have been coverted to all digital readouts with three displays. If you have the space, I cannot see why you wouldn't put a TWI and chaff on a heli. Are you just supposed to ignore all the A-A and A-S radar missles out there? Only if you have a death wish. I for one really want to know went a fighter like the F16C locks me up with his radar or a ground unit like the Shielka lights me up. Good to know.

[EinsteinEP]

I believe at least part of the problem is that in the KA-50, there is not Radar Warning System, so you wouldn't know when to use chaff, so what good would it do you to load it instead of flares that will save you.

There's also no warning for when an IR missile is shot, either. By the above logic, *no* fighter plane should carry flares. Funny that many still do, though, eh?

 

If you had an aircraft/platform that had chaff but no indication of when you were getting painted by radar, you'd use chaff when you thought you might be getting painted (e.g., you know AA defenses are in the area and know where you are and are probably about to shoot you) or if you think they may be useful (e.g., you see a missile streaking up towards you from an area that you know has radar-guided SAMs). Just because you don't have a sensor integrated into a warning system doesn't mean you can't effectively use countermeasures.

[EtherealN]

I for one really want to know went a fighter like the F16C locks me up with his radar or a ground unit like the Shielka lights me up. Good to know.

 

If the only way you'd know a Shilka has it's sights on you would be a radar warning receiver, you are doing something very very wrong. The Shilka is short-range enough that you should know where it is (and preferably have destroyed it) long before you are within it's range. Sometimes things happen, of course, which is where you bug out and maneuver to a safe firing position.

 

No matter what technology you have out there, there is only ever one primary detection system: Mk1 Eyeball. For a mudmover like the Ka-50, that is a lot more reliable than trusting systems that will only be "reliable" at altitudes you aren't supposed to be at - down low and close you need to have built up the recon and situational awareness for the RWR to be pretty much useless anyway.

[sobek]

Helicopters are royally screwed when deployed in a SAM environment, that's not what they are supposed to do, so deal with it ;). Also, helicopters are too slow to dodge missiles and i personally doubt that chaff would seriously increase survivability.

[Ramstein]

Did you guys see this latest TV series Primevil episode (last night in the USA on BBC America) when this guy take a small helo and fights with a huge dinosaur? I am wondering if they used a toy model to do the moves they made? It looked 100% real. This, huge mean, meat eating dino was trying to eat the helo and the pilot was nose to nose with it dodging and weaving, really, really fast. The Ka-50 could have never done what this little helo did.

 

:doh:

[Boberro]

What for chaff dispencer if you don't have RWR? Ok, we CAN know in area there is OSA. Ok, but...chances to avoid missile are really weak without RWR. And u drop all chaffs in one moment...

[Chibawang]

So I went questing in PA for a drum mag that I could take home to No 20 Magyland. I found a wind up drum with the back that opens. How does it work? loading and winding and such? 170 was the price BTW.

 

Drum magazines? Rifles? :dunno: I think you're badly lost.

[Zembla]

Did you guys see this latest TV series Primevil episode (last night in the USA on BBC America) when this guy take a small helo and fights with a huge dinosaur? I am wondering if they used a toy model to do the moves they made? It looked 100% real. This, huge mean, meat eating dino was trying to eat the helo and the pilot was nose to nose with it dodging and weaving, really, really fast. The Ka-50 could have never done what this little helo did.

 

:doh:

 

q6F-0rIpLJE

 

Models can do crazy stuff. Be prepared to blown away when watching that movie :)

 

Anyway, scale and power to weight ratio etc, not to mention inertia, helos despite being maneuverable, aren't the best bullet dodgers when it comes to missiles :)

 

+ The RWR disucssion has been done ad infinitum now.

 

-Z

[Chibawang]

Zonks!

[Topgun505]

In regards to the zoo (i.e. Shilka), you would pick up the warning on the RWR long before you got in range of its guns (in open terrain) allowing you to see it and avoid it, or to help find it and kill it. And if you are flying low in the weeds and zip around a hill and one happens to be parked in the trees where it's hard to spot, it's pretty darn likely you won't know about it until you are hearing the pinging of shells hitting your craft. Whereas if you had a RWR, it would start squealing the moment you rounded the hill giving you at least SOME warning. So a RWR WOULD be useful in the Ka-50 in that respect. Sadly, that is not to be.

 

As was mentioned by the mods earlier on another thread. The SAM logic is going to be tinkered with and is going to be considerably more lethal. Spamming flares after the missle has locked on to you will be considerable less effective as compared to spamming them BEFORE it locks on thus preventing the seeker from locking on the correct target, or (if they model it) may prevent the missile from being fired at all because the launcher might decide they can't be sure they have a lock on the actual aircraft.

 

Thus ... flares will be more important as a preventative, not reactive, measure. Chaff would be useful in much the same respect. There are a number of radar guided threats in BS. It would be nice if you know you have to pop up and expose yourself to get a shot off at a target, that some chaff are bundled with the flares that you are spamming out in order to give you a window of survivability while you conduct your attack and then get out of dodge.

 

In short, chaff would have its uses here. Maybe not as much as flares, but still useful.

 

 

If the only way you'd know a Shilka has it's sights on you would be a radar warning receiver, you are doing something very very wrong. The Shilka is short-range enough that you should know where it is (and preferably have destroyed it) long before you are within it's range. Sometimes things happen, of course, which is where you bug out and maneuver to a safe firing position.

 

No matter what technology you have out there, there is only ever one primary detection system: Mk1 Eyeball. For a mudmover like the Ka-50, that is a lot more reliable than trusting systems that will only be "reliable" at altitudes you aren't supposed to be at - down low and close you need to have built up the recon and situational awareness for the RWR to be pretty much useless anyway.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Topgun505

[DarkWanderer]

If the only way you'd know a Shilka has it's sights on you would be a radar warning receiver, you are doing something very very wrong. The Shilka is short-range enough that you should know where it is (and preferably have destroyed it) long before you are within it's range. Sometimes things happen, of course, which is where you bug out and maneuver to a safe firing position.

Well... Someone has poisoned the community with this "If you can't live without both hands - you don't try hard enough" attitude. It's always better to have something in the sleeve, than to have nothing. It's just impossible to foresee everything - sooner or later you'll go in a hover leaving a Shilka on your back. And then - if you have an RWR, you'll escape, if you don't - you won't. That's the logic. Same goes for chaff.

[EtherealN]

Well, yeah, DarkWanderer. But what I'm basically saying is that some people seem to think that a lot of stuff is just impossible without an RWR. We've seen this in the two billion previous threads about RWRs and the standard "omg but then radar SAM will slaughter me and I don't stand a chance" stuff.

 

Also, do note the "if" i the beginning there, which indicates how I understood the tone of the post I replied to - but that is of course difficult to judge on forums, wherefore the "if" has to be there.

 

---

 

In response to Topgun,

I know the the pubiciced tweaking of flares and their main preventative use quite well.

 

The RWR would only give reliable warning if the threats are constantly emitting, which in a real scenario I don't think they would be - at least not if there's an ARM threat in the theatre: and of course also for the very specific reason that a hidden unit would be exposing itself if it is constantly searching with it's radar. This is why I think certain people's picture of how useful it would be is grossly exhaggerated. It would be useful in certain situations, but it would not be reliable and it would never replace the routine of Eyeball Mk1 (sometimes Eyeball Mk2 - that is, the Skhval). So my basic point is that if someone feels they need the RWR to detect those threats, they are starting at the wrong end. RWR would be a nice help, but you have to start with getting a good search routine with Eyeball Mk1. (Something that is difficult and that I am far from perfect at myself.)

[ericinexile]

Chaff would be useless even if the Ka50 DID have a RWS. If you pop up and blow chaff, it will fall right along with you as get back behind cover. Chaff doesn't magically hover above a ridgeline waiting to take a missile so you don't have to. A radar guided missile will generally be fired from a distance and the helo pilot will never see it. By the time the missile is within the pilot's horizon, the motor will have long burned out.

 

Flares on the other hand, at least in the game, can be fired when the smoke plume is spotted. They are designed to increase the pilot's odds in a low-tech MANPAD environment. Having said that, I'd still like to have an RWS just to better be able "see" the battlefield.

...But the chaff can stay in the hanger.

 

Smokin' Hole

Edited June 9, 2009 by ericinexile