Into the Jungle - Next Gen

[Devil 505]

6 hours ago, Tonker said:

FWIW, I did wonder if some assets could be tightened up. Flying around Andersen for example, notoriously tough on the hardware anyway, I frickin' loved the Marines' area...but wonder if it might be worth making some choices about what aircraft are based where. Perhaps just one Marine area, one Air Force; let the rotary guys start at the FARPs, leave the Bronco to Ore etc. Just spitballing.

We can absolutely do this! I will get to work on it with Kandy.  I have noticed some hits up there as well.  Let me see what more we can take out that makes sense and hopefully reduce the workload around Andersen.  I am hoping if they release Vulkan this year it will help a lot.  Time will tell on that.  Let us work on it this weekend for sure. Greatly appreciate the feedback.

[Tonker]

Sorry not to be able to give more accurate, more targeted feedback. Soon 

My impression of a quick sightseeing tour of Andersen in the Loach was that each area is great, loads of good (and immersive!) stuff to look at and play with! Just as I started getting hints (and it was only hints) of performance issues, I wondered if it would make more sense to cull a 'zone' rather than strip them all of their assets.

Might not be a goer, and might not fit with your guys' priorities etc, and again that's cool

EDIT: TBH that was all perfectly flyable @Devil 505! So this suggestion is very much an 'alternative' approach, in no way an 'improvement'...but I think if I were looking at reducing the workload around Andersen I'd be looking at eg:

• Move the F-5s to be with the F-4s (either side of a taxiway if feeling friendly, or back to back so you can only see the same aircraft type at spawn for that sweet sweet squadron territory vibe!) for a bit of Air Force consolidation.
  • This area can then be detailed, taxiway to the active likewise as this would be shared with Marine fixed wing spawns - you're gonna see it every time.
  • The other side of the field can then be blocked out with simpler assets
• The Army rotary area is awesome, but it could be culled to just CH-47s and give them a bit of focused heavy lift love. There're Hueys in the Marine's area, and how many of us spawn Loaches at Andersen normally?!
• Then in general maybe look at things like the number of windsocks*, placement of the music-playing huts** etc with an eye to getting the most benefit on the most spawns for each asset used and being savage about cutting/replacing those which aren't offering good 'value'.
  • I know it's all tiny gains, but they'll add up
• I spend the most time noticing these things whilst running start-ups, so assets that improve immersion from spawn to takeoff would be my focus.***

Just some very loose examples, but hopefully that makes some sense?

Really though, as I type it feels a bit like a solution in search of a problem. If it works as intended for the people it's intended for then that's the important thing

 

*As long as you can see one from the driving seat - through any available window - then s'all good, right?! I've not actually noticed any wind effect whilst flying 'tho...?

**Which I assume place higher workloads on the system than 'normal' huts, but assumption only.

***Once into the mission I'm busy! Whilst I appreciate the whole scene on departure/finals and landing, I've got a bit on at that point so spend less time poking into the details.

Edited January 30 by Tonker
Post-flight thoughts

[Porkbrain]

@Mistermann Hi, I've never looked at Tracks before but saved one tonight with a hot huey with M60 gunners at the pontoon, Rando settings very low for all units except Rando11 at 100%

Flew it in VR as a single mission, excuse the awful takeoff, my excuse is I was thinking of what I was about to do rather than flying , headed towards the nearest enemy units, with low labels on, then flew parallel heading around 300 and the left door gunner damaged Jungle inf 2-4 4320T - fps dropped to single digits, then 1-1 4320T, 11-4 4320T, 3-4 4320T in turn plus the odd inf from those groups. The fps started to recover then dropped as the new 4320Ts were damaged. Back to 36ish fps after passing them all, then I reversed to around 120 and the gunner landed hits on most of the same inf and trucks with no fps drops flying back parallel to those groups. 

I then watched the replay 3 times, the first two times roughly the same units were present and the same drops/recoveries occurred when the 4320Ts took damage, along with odd inf hit in between.

On the 3rd replay the gunner only hit 2-3 inf 2-2 inf, 1-2 inf, 1-3 inf and 1-4 inf no 4320Ts at all, but the same fps drops/recoveries occurred during the run at 300 degrees, when I turned back on a 120 heading the gunner hit some of those inf again, but also made the first damage hits on 1-1, 11-4 and 3-4 4320Ts, there were no fps drops on that run.

So, from thinking that the trucks themselves were the main cause of the drops, perhaps it's the groups and the gunners normally go for a juicy truck first rather than a mole in a hole?

I've attached the track as I assume it will contain the randomised settings that I used, and as you said that you have not encountered the drops at all perhaps a replay on your machine might show/not show the same results?

I didn't take control at any point, the only other difference with the tracks was that my fps on the recording was 33 to 36 fps but on the replays it bounced about from 30.up to 40 and back when the slideshow was not happening, an overhead of running the track perhaps?

RANDO11.trk

[Mistermann]

@Porkbrain Thanks for taking the time to report the details above.  Unfortunately DCS is notoriously poor at recording and replaying tracks - even after recent patch content supposedly corrected many of these issues.

I tried replaying your track multiple times and the Huey explodes 26 seconds into the track.  

I'll take a look at the 4320T unit.  So you know, this particular unit serves a special purpose in DCS - it resupplies units within its operational radius.  Having these resupply trucks near groups ensures the group doesn't run out of ammo.  Because of this, I can't just replace that unit with a regular truck for example, rather it has to be replaced with another resupply unit.  

Again, I won't see any change over here.  My advice is to run the same test but try it with any of the following ground units:

Unarmed: Truck Bedford
Unarmed: GAZ-3308
Unarmed: GAZ-66
Unarmed: KAMAZ 43101
Unarmed: KrAZ-6322 6x6
Unarmed: Truck M939 Heavy
Unarmed: Truck Opel Blitz
Unarmed: Truck Ural-4320
Unarmed: Truck Ural-4320 MCC
Unarmed: Truck Ural-4320-31 Arm'd
Unarmed: Truck ZIL-135

I don't know if this will do anything to solve the challenge - it might.  If you find one of these to work instead of the 4320T, I will happily update all units in the mission for the community.

Edited January 31 by Mistermann

[Devil 505]

Did a quick video on the Chinook performance in DCS.  Probably still needs some optimization from ED before it gets alot better.

 

[Porkbrain]

2 hours ago, Mistermann said:

My advice is to run the same test but try it with any of the following ground units:

OK, some results, but not very helpful as the plot thickens, I made 3 runs each against the following vehicle changes.

I changed all Jungle Inf trucks from 4320T to ZIL-135, same fps drops on that truck type.

Changed all. Zils to Ural-4320, same fps drops when first damage to 4320s.

However a possible unhelpful DCS bug?  I'd seen the occasional drops in yesterday's replays where it occurred when an Ural-375 was hit, I ignored that as I assumed it was a hit on a unit well away from the ones I was flying close to.

This also occurred with these test runs, and on checking through the Score log there was no mention of Ural-375s, so I made the Jungle inf units visible on the F10 map when I set 4320s on all those units, and can confirm that hits reported as Ural-375 were actually against the Ural-4320s as shown by their 'health' bar turning yellow.

If nothing else, it probably exonerates the 4320T from crimes against humanity.

Time for bed said Zebedee.

[Mistermann]

13 hours ago, Porkbrain said:

If nothing else, it probably exonerates the 4320T from crimes against humanity.

Thanks for validating. 

[UH-1HEnjoyer]

On 1/29/2025 at 1:57 PM, Mistermann said:

I really want to help make this work for others.  If the community can get 10% of the fun and memories out of this compared to mine, I'd be thrilled.  It does pain me to hear about these slideshows.

There MUST be something in the mission that's causing the problem, I am not trying to suggest otherwise.  What the root cause of that issue is, however, I honestly don't know. 

Scripting

When I tested out the problem that I posted the video on, I stripped out all the scripts and the problem didn't go away (that's why they are all now conditional).  I therefore don't think any scripts are causing the issue.  Might they be causing other issues?  Possibly, but I am not seeing them.

Fixing the slideshow

I was as surprised as anyone when Devil uncovered the slideshow issue in his testing.  Once I knew where to look and how to replicate it, I was able to solve it.  The way I solved the issue was by changing the grouping of those units.  I was grasping at straws when I made the change, but the change resolved the slideshow on my machine.  I can tell you it didn't make sense as to WHY it solved it ... it just did.  Maybe the "fix" I posted has nothing to do with other slideshows that others are experiencing - again, IDK.

Replicating

At the risk of sounding like ED on this one, the challenge for me here is I am not seeing this issue.  Nor are any of my squad mates.  I fly/test this in SP, Hosted MP, Dynamic Server, Pancake mode and VR.  I can't replicate the issue and in the hundreds of hours we've played this mission over the past year have simply never seen it.  Why aren't we experiencing this?  I honestly don't know.  Heck out of the hundreds of downloads me and my mates might be the only ones without performance issues - outside this thread and Devil's YT channel I simply have no way of knowing.

As I said above, I will try my best to replicate.  Until someone with this issue isolates it and can describe the "what" and "where" I am not expecting to make much progress.  

Is it possible that the assets are bugged in someway interfering with something? Or is it possible that we are just poors and have subpar systems? Although I am having a pretty smooth experience running in 2D @ 120 fps 75% of the time. And my PC is a potato compared to what others are posting spec wise.

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8-Core Processor 3.80 GHz-16GB RAM- RTX 3060Ti

 

[Mistermann]

5 hours ago, UH-1HEnjoyer said:

Is it possible that the assets are bugged in someway interfering with something? Or is it possible that we are just poors and have subpar systems? Although I am having a pretty smooth experience running in 2D @ 120 fps 75% of the time. And my PC is a potato compared to what others are posting spec wise.

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8-Core Processor 3.80 GHz-16GB RAM- RTX 3060Ti

 

Is it possible?  Absolutely. However I'd expect them to be bugged for all if that was the case.

Tell you what....I will go in and update this mission to have 1 random group. It'll be fairly easy to do it.  You can test and see if you still have performance issues.  If anyone else wants a copy to test DM me.

DM'd a mission to you, @UH-1HEnjoyer

Edited February 1 by Mistermann

[mdtenor22001]

Hi team! I've been away from DCS for a bit and just am now catching up with this thread. I downloaded v.006.  Took a Huey out for a spin and noticed that overall the performance seemed better than my prior times.  However, when my door gunners would attack certain groups, I would still get the slow down to single digit frame rates (was previously getting 60fps).  It was less severe and less long lasting than v.002. I didn't have a chance to fly around Andersen to see how my FPS held. I'm on a pretty high-end system, FWIW.  I'd be happy to test a copy of the unit-reduced miz--or just wait and monitor this thread. Again, thank you guys for doing what you're doing and working to improve this for all of us! I'm looking forward to flying this with friends.

[mdtenor22001]

One other point of comparison I'd like to share: When I was flying around last night in the Huey, overall I was feeling like the performance was pretty "stuttery" in a lot of places, especially at low level around the farps when I was trying to sight-see. Using the built-in FPS monitor, I was seeing oscillation between ~38-60fps. And this was after I dropped several of my DCS graphics settings below what I typically run on non-Marianas maps.  Just to see if it was the mission or the Marianas map, I decided to load up the last mission in Reflected's Paradise Lost campaign, which is a pretty object and AI-heavy remake of the famous Apocalypse Now helo assault--with the same settings I had just been using--just to compare if the lack of smoothness was comparable and attributable to the lack of optimization of Marianas.  To my surprise, the Reflected mission was noticeably smoother with higher average FPS but also less variability in FPS (like during the flight over a heavily populated Andersen or during an attack run with rockets and explosions going off all around). It seemed like the "green line" on the FPS counter was less jagged. Apologies if that doesn't make sense because I don't really know what I'm looking at, but I know that if the green line is spiked or jaggy, things are not smooth, whereas if it is relatively flat, performance in VR seems good.  So, even though Marianas runs the worst of all maps on my system, there appears to be something else going on that is affecting the smoothness, and maybe CPU utilization, of the ITJ mission.  I wish I had more experience or skill to give more detailed feedback, but I wanted to share that anecdotal experience purely from a single-player (for now) perspective.

[Mistermann]

I am starting to think the 20+ year old DCS core - designed for "on rails" simple, single player content is just getting taxed beyond what it can take.  Even top end machines are getting a workout because DCS doesn't effectively/efficiently operate - including my own. 

We have a LOT going on in this mission and there's a LOT of housekeeping DCS is doing under the covers - every group must be tracked (there are 26 total with over 300+ units).  Add to that the CSAR logic of checking for downed pilots and location of helos in relation to downed pilots in real time and it doesn't take long for a dark picture to form in my logical brain.  I am starting to worry/consider saying there might just be too much going on for single player hosted experiences.  

My group uses a dedicated server to play this and I am starting to think this plays a much larger role in offloading the compute from the client machine experiences.  If not mistaken, most, if not all the feedback received on performance comes from people playing this on their own machines (either as a MP host or SP mission).  

So I highly recommend finding a dedicated server if at all possible.  I've even used an old laptop for a bit to host events for my friends.  Not ideal, but it worked.  My dedicated server is a pretty old machine that was my gaming machine before I purchased the one I have today some 3 years ago. 

Server is an i9-9900K@ 3.6Ghz, 3600Mhz, 8 Cores 32GB RAM.  Win11 Home.  Only used for DCS Dedicated Server.

I'll continue looking for performance savings, but at this point I have run out of tweaks/ideas as to what's causing the problem other than running it on a dedicated server.

Maybe the release of vulken (whatever decade that happens) will help the situation.  I doubt ED are looking into core code and asking themselves if/how to optimize.

[Porkbrain]

1 hour ago, Mistermann said:

I'll continue looking for performance savings, but at this point I have run out of tweaks/ideas as to what's causing the problem other than running it on a dedicated server.

A timely comment. I have looked a few times for 'idiot proof' guides on how to set up a server on my own lan specifically to run as a dedicated DCS server, but whilst I'm not a complete idiot, I couldn't make sense of the many 'it's dead easy just open port XXX' etc., rather than how to do that.

So if anyone can give me a link or advice on how to do that I have a spare laptop and a spare desktop that I could repurpose.

Any & all advice would be greatly appreciated as I did log in to the Fritzl Box router that I was given 3 years ago but had no idea what any of the network settings meant, so I'm a bit averse to fiddling with something that works and screwing it up through lack of knowledge.

If it is doable then I'll be able give a straight comparison by repeating the exact same tests that were run as SP.

That's if it is dead easy, of course. 

[Mistermann]

Unfortunately forwarding ports ranges from "easy" to "incredibly difficult" depending on your Router and ISP.

For example my ISP has a software tool that configures the router remotely.  I fall into the "easy" group.  I also configured Azure to host DCS as a server when my current server was down so have some experience here.

Regardless, the process of opening and forwarding port 10308 boils down to 2 things.  1) Forwarding the port on your Router and 2) Allowing traffic through the port on your firewall.

There are YouTube videos showing how to setup a dedicated server.

Edited February 4 by Mistermann

[mdtenor22001]

That is an interesting thought. Since I've never played around with a dedicated server, I never thought about the processing power offloaded by the server as distinguished from the single player experience. I don't have access to a server of my own, but I'll see if I can convince one of the groups I fly with to throw it onto a server for testing. 

[Tonker]

No idea what's involved, so feel free to ignore/shoot down as required, but would it be useful to host a 'closed beta' server for slightly wider testing by those active here?

Even 30 mins might help isolate issues for those who are normal SP only/have different set ups to Team I2J.

As ever, just a thought

[Mistermann]

I appreciate the suggestion.  

That's a lot of work, time, coordination and personal drama to chase down gremlins I (and my flying mates) don't have.  

I don't mean this harshly. 

Like most, my DCS time is limited and competes with RL job and family commitments.  I don't want to turn DCS into "work" that I begin to regret.

If anyone wants to host the mission to determine if they experience issues, I'd welcome any objective observations that come from it.

 

[Tonker]

Not taken harshly, and agreed with all  We're keen y'all keep having fun too - it's a kind of trickle-down economics which actually works!

Knee-jerk Thought 2: have any of us with these temporary stutters when a specific unit is engaged tried running an AI attack on the same group/unit?

Not that I'm thinking about a FAC script or anything... 

[Tonker]

Can confirm:

 

Finally been able to sink a good chunk into I2J, with a couple hours in the Bronco followed by an hour or so in the Cayuse to ferry all my downed pilots back to the MASH. Had a blast, as ever. A couple slowdowns, first time I've had more than one in a session, one apparently engaging an infantry unit* the other against a Ural-4320. Changes in v2.006 have improved this massively, as previously reported, and it's far from a showstopper.

Quite apart from anything it enforces using decent RoE and breaking away nice and early on those first passes!

Otherwise performance was in line with expectations for the Marianas across the board.

*Rocket attack into the centre of the group on the island off the South-Western tip of the AO, so fully expect splash damage on the vehicles, as per @Porkbrain's findings re Ural-375s.

 

Tooling round in the Bronco at 5,000' as the sun comes up is such a different experience from being down in the weeds with the Cayuse, and the FARPS etc look absolutely brilliant from up there too. As you can see above, as I was waiting for repair/rearm/refuel I had a little explore. Looks pretty good up close too!

 

As ever, the following aren't even suggestions let alone gripes, just things which occured to me:

• some AI air traffic would add a lot. Because of the size of the AO, just a (eg) single chopper lapping the Farps and a single Bronco shuttling between Orote and Andersen would have an impact on pretty much every spawn. Dunno if the AI can actually hack those landings, but given what the BUFFs add to Andersen it'd be cool to see a bit of that elsewhere.
• isn't the Kiowa static purdy! Dread to think what all those tie-downs are doing to my FPS, but looks 'kin awesome!
• civilian villages/groups would give the recce guys some actual recce'ing to do, open up 'danger close' situations etc
  • It's perhaps too easy to spot a group in the distance and just roll in and start planting freedom seeds from miles out. Having a mix of hostile/civilian would encourage getting up close and personal to see what's occuring, increasing risk, surprise and the likelihood of going home with a good story (and some extra ventilation holes). There's still Alpha/Bunker hills if you wanna get all Rolling Thunder about it.
• are listenable radio stations a thing via the Mission Editor? 
  • just gonna leave this here*. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/S00675 No reason...

*Seems well within their fair-use policy, and useful in ways a Youtube vid etc might not be.

 

Again, just a thought from a SP perspective. I appreciate that's not what, or who, the mission is for  

 

Thanks for a cracking time to all involved, looking forward to seeing what the mission has to offer a Skyhawk next time...

[Mistermann]

5 hours ago, Tonker said:

some AI air traffic would add a lot. Because of the size of the AO, just a (eg) single chopper lapping the Farps and a single Bronco shuttling between Orote and Andersen would have an impact on pretty much every spawn. Dunno if the AI can actually hack those landings, but given what the BUFFs add to Andersen it'd be cool to see a bit of that elsewhere.

For awhile we had AI Hueys and Phantoms in the mission.  It was before the CSAR elements were added.  They kept littering the battlefield with downed pilots and weren't really adding anything to gameplay (I can see why a SP would feel differently).  I'll add the request to my list of backlog items.

 

5 hours ago, Tonker said:

civilian villages/groups would give the recce guys some actual recce'ing to do, open up 'danger close' situations etc

Devil and I are spit-balling additional gameplay options that introduce this "danger close" experience.  Still a ways off, I suspect as I'm working on some further randomization that I think the community will like.  

 

5 hours ago, Tonker said:

are listenable radio stations a thing via the Mission Editor? 

Yes.  You can play recorded .ogg audio files.  This is how Reflected did it in Paradise lost as well.  You can assign an audio file to a radio frequency.  As a matter of fact, I replaced all of Reflected's audio in PL with my own period specific music.  Now in our I2J MP environment, at least ours, there's no real room for listening to music with all the real radio chatter. 

I am happy to explain how to add a music track to a radio frequency if you want - just DM me.

 

5 hours ago, Tonker said:

Tooling round in the Bronco at 5,000' as the sun comes up is such a different experience from being down in the weeds with the Cayuse, and the FARPS etc look absolutely brilliant from up there too. As you can see above, as I was waiting for repair/rearm/refuel I had a little explore. Looks pretty good up close too!

Funny you mention that.  I was on the server by myself the other day in a Bronco as well.  What a different experience - almost peaceful.  Looking down from 2K' trying to pick out targets was completely different from the chaos of engaging marked targets down low with a Helo.  It also gave me a new/different perspective on playing this solo.  Its so much harder to find targets with just the Mk-1 eyeball from altitude.  Also tough to make multiple passes in the fog without the aid of smoke like we usually have.  I love this entire experience!

[Tonker]

1 hour ago, Mistermann said:

I love this entire experience!

This this this!

[Devil 505]

On 2/5/2025 at 9:16 AM, Tonker said:

isn't the Kiowa static purdy! Dread to think what all those tie-downs are doing to my FPS, but looks 'kin awesome!

I agree with this my friend.  I will talk to Kandy but I think we could honestly pull these statics out.  As much as it pains me to say it, they do not fit the time period.  When flying a client with the old army livery without the MMS, it feels like an old school Vietnam Ranger from the outside, but obviously modern day from inside. I think we can leave them as clients because the way we have them set up pulls off the Vietnam vibe but kill the statics to keep the visuals looking time period specific.  

[Devil 505]

The below two videos were shot prior to last weekend.  I was out all week for work and did not have a chance to ge them finished.  Stand by for last nights video.  Probably the best time we have had on ITJ.  Kandy did some magnificent work scripting the groups differently thanks to some community suggestions and requests.  This now absolutely feels more random than ever.  Units are not spawning in the same place and it truly takes some team work to go scout and mark target for your buddies.  We also have some other additions I will discuss soon.  Good times on the horizon for ITJ.

In the first video, I was absolutely surprised to see the new Super Carrier plane directors working with the A-4.  This was awesome and a challenge given the fact you are using brakes to turn the aircraft.  One bug I found at the end of the flight, and I mention it in the second video is when you RTB to the carrier and they guide you off the active, the plane director wants you to fold your wings.  You cannot do that in the A-4 so that is where the assistance stops with the directors.  Oddly enough, the message stayed on screen as I selected other aircraft.  I remember months ago this happened with the F-4, but I cannot remember if I did something to correct it or if it was a patch.  Suggestion, if you land with the A-4 on the carrier, do not taxi off the active, just select another aircraft after you raise your hook and flaps.

 

In this video, Zipper and I were testing the Chinook for the first time in CSAR capacity.  He tried in the video above and we will say the wind caused the accident.......... After flying this with him, I absolutely believe this helicopter will make ITJ more believable and fun to play with friends.  Flying formation with him and the sound of that big beast coming in will give you goose bumps.  Even though we were not successful in a first RTB, the troops get in and respond when in the area.  Stay tuned for the next video from last nights flight. Zipper crushed it.  Best flight we have ever had hands down.  A lot of awesome changes inbound.

 

[Mistermann]

Last night was probably the best time I've ever had in DCS in my more than decade regularly playing simulating.  

The fellas and I spent 3+ hours flying Into The Jungle and it felt like 30 minutes tops.  What made this experience so memorable?  First off, it just doesn't get better flying with buddies.  We've flown together enough over the years we kinda know what the other is thinking at this point.  We've developed a very good communications style and each enjoy the cooperative experience of Multiplayer.  Secondly, the upcoming changes made to I2J upped the fun factor significantly.  A huge shout out to a person known as BIKEGUY3034 on YouTube who suggested on one of Devil's videos we randomize the placement of group spawns using MIST.  I had used this function before, but just hadn't thought of it for I2J .

Instead of letting MIST select group placement in a single random zone, I chose to architect the randomness in a more controlled manner.   The end result is group spawns are very random.  Each group now has 7 possible spawn locations on the map.  Odds are you'll never experience the same map layout ever.  Each play session will be unique.  Gone are the days of anticipating hootchville in the same place, or bunker city tucked in next to the river (Bunker/Alpha/South Island are exempt - they are always there and always spawn)

Below is a 30 minute video of our 3+ hours.  Its a long video.  I flew the Bronco, Mongo (Devil505) scouted and Zipper (Wulf103) bounced between CAS and CSAR roles.  I rarely fly the Bronco but after tonight, I will definitely pilot that beast more often.  It packs a punch and gets out of trouble quickly.  It also has a great FOV for VR and enough ordinance to stay on station for extended engagements.  I flew the same airframe all night.  Rearming at Olf.

Hope you all enjoy the show.

 

Edited February 8 by Mistermann

[NIGHTHAWK1]

dummy here,   how do i play single player,  tried UH-1 transport from various areas.   I could get smoke on some objects, like logs at #10,000, or crates under a shed.  But I had no indications of where to transport items to.  I get no ATC instructions?   Any help appreciated.   The whole concept sounds great to me and would like to fly various missions in the Heuy

Edited February 8 by NIGHTHAWK1