Issues with AIM-54 phoenix

[teewhite7]

Just returned after about a year off & it seems I'm either rusty on there's been some changes to the phoenix.

I've been running a few campaigns along with speed & angels and have yet to get a successful hit with the phoenix in soft locks -with tws-
Ive had success with hard locks like 10mi or less out, but maybe out of 15 launches in tws they lose track - and ive even noticed they will travel to the same exact point and collide...which is a bit strange to me. ive never seen that happen even if both lose track, that they go to the exact same location.

Anyone seen this issue?

[Joch1955]

i have not had any issues with TWS AUTO and have regularly scored hits at 35 nm+, although yes, STT lock is more consistent.

One thing to check is what missile you are using, the C model works fine, but the A model seems to require a STT lock to score consistently.

are you firing multiple missiles at the same AC? I  always just launch one at one target and try to keep the lock as long as possible while angling away. 

 

Edited December 7, 2024 by Joch1955

[TomcatFan1976]

22 hours ago, teewhite7 said:

Just returned after about a year off & it seems I'm either rusty on there's been some changes to the phoenix.

I've been running a few campaigns along with speed & angels and have yet to get a successful hit with the phoenix in soft locks -with tws-
Ive had success with hard locks like 10mi or less out, but maybe out of 15 launches in tws they lose track - and ive even noticed they will travel to the same exact point and collide...which is a bit strange to me. ive never seen that happen even if both lose track, that they go to the exact same location.

Anyone seen this issue?

The Phoenix in my opinion, and many others, is that it doesn't track worth a crap. But you bring it up to HB or ED and you might just as well talk to a wall, because they don't care. People have brought data after data to prove things, and they basically will tell you "Nope you're wrong and we are right. You're fault and you must suck at using it." Then they will lock the postings. Surprise this one hasn't been locked yet like the locked the pinned Phoenix discussion. So i'll give you the answer you will hear.....You're wrong and you can't do it right cause you suck. We know everything and we will lock this discussion if anyone questions us on anything......

[WarthogOsl]

My Pk against single AI bandits in TWS remains around 50%.  However, if you have two bandits flying fairly close together, the second shot is pretty much wasted.  TWS track is almost always lost against the trailing bandit mid shot.  My typical pattern these days is firing a TWS shot at the leader bandit and crank, then when the first shot goes pit bull, turn back in and fire an PD-STT Phoenix shot at his wingman.

[MicroShket]

В 07.12.2024 в 23:06, TomcatFan1976 сказал:

ED... because they don't care.

A few days ago Eagle Dynamics officially answered that AIM-54 is in queue for investigation and update by themselves. What do you else need? 

I think it will take maybe three years, don't know, but still it will be much earlier than finishing the F-14 module by Heatblur. 

Edited December 9, 2024 by MicroShket

[draconus]

On 12/7/2024 at 9:06 PM, TomcatFan1976 said:

Surprise this one hasn't been locked yet like the locked the pinned Phoenix discussion.

If they lock up the thread it'll be because of posts like yours. The other thread lock was a bit surprising but was about other reasons than you provided.

Not saying it's all perfect but yes - the specific case, how and when you launch the missile, and what you do after has very much to do with your success.

[TomcatPilot1976]

17 hours ago, MicroShket said:

A few days ago Eagle Dynamics officially answered that AIM-54 is in queue for investigation and update by themselves. What do you else need? 

I think it will take maybe three years, don't know, but still it will be much earlier than finishing the F-14 module by Heatblur. 

They been saying that for how many years now? What's wrong with wanting results and answers? They keep telling people, oh we are gonna fix it and they never do. They just keep telling us and people just sit around and wait. People pay good money for these and expect them to be on the ball or at least willing to converse about it instead of telling people what they want to hear and never doing it. I don't think I'm asking to much for a company to be more forthcoming about things. Actions speak louder than words, and their actions are speaking volumes about how they treat their customers.....

[TomcatFan1976]

14 hours ago, draconus said:

If they lock up the thread it'll be because of posts like yours. The other thread lock was a bit surprising but was about other reasons than you provided.

Not saying it's all perfect but yes - the specific case, how and when you launch the missile, and what you do after has very much to do with your success.

The other thread had nothing to do with me and my postings. If you read the final posts, it was someone points out facts and science, and like I said, they didn't like it and locked it. So basically I am spot on then about them not wanting discussion and facts brought to them. At least I have the balls to call them out on stuff and try to get answers. We all buy these products and expect things to be right or get fixed in a timely manner, and if that is too much to ask, then they shouldn't be in business. I encourage everyone to stop buying anything from ED until they start fixing things in a timely manner. There are more and more videos on youtube saying the same thing, and more everyday....not my fault they can't handle criticism and lock and or ban people who questions them. 

[DD_Fenrir]

12 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

If you read the final posts, it was someone points out facts and science, and like I said, they didn't like it and locked it.

That was your take away? Seriously?!?

12 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

So basically I am spot on then about them not wanting discussion and facts brought to them. At least I have the balls to call them out on stuff and try to get answers. 

Lucky for us we have your razor sharp perspicacity *rolleyes*

12 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

We all buy these products and expect things to be right or get fixed in a timely manner, and if that is too much to ask, then they shouldn't be in business. I encourage everyone to stop buying anything from ED until they start fixing things in a timely manner. There are more and more videos on youtube saying the same thing, and more everyday....not my fault they can't handle criticism and lock and or ban people who questions them. 

The fact that you conflate ED and Heatblur tells me you need more time to process and understand what is being said to you.

 

 

[Naquaii]

14 hours ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

The other thread had nothing to do with me and my postings. If you read the final posts, it was someone points out facts and science, and like I said, they didn't like it and locked it. So basically I am spot on then about them not wanting discussion and facts brought to them. At least I have the balls to call them out on stuff and try to get answers. We all buy these products and expect things to be right or get fixed in a timely manner, and if that is too much to ask, then they shouldn't be in business. I encourage everyone to stop buying anything from ED until they start fixing things in a timely manner. There are more and more videos on youtube saying the same thing, and more everyday....not my fault they can't handle criticism and lock and or ban people who questions them. 

Don't start this again.

That had nothing to do with what you're talking about, just because we don't agree with the presented calculations and their point of view doesn't mean we don't welcome feedback and new information when available. But that fact doesn't mean we always have to agree with the presented feedback which was the case in this instance. So you couldn't, in fact, be more wrong about us not wanting discussion and new facts brought to light.

What we don't want however is a derailed, fruitless discussion, about something that we've already answered and decided upon. The last couple of pages (or more) of that thread was basically the same people bringing up the same points and sources over and over again disregarding the fact that we've acknowledged and decided we don't agree with their sources. And then people piling on with just basically <profanity>-talk and bashing because they didn't agree with us.

It would be best if this thread didn't end up the same.

[Joch1955]

so I have been playing around with @Malfoy7 excellent F-14 and F-18 training missions:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3339913/

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3313187/

The missions include a BVR range where you can go 1v1 with an AI which spawns 40+ nm away at 25 k altitude. I have done a lot of dogfights against AI Mig-29/Su-27s armed with R-27ER/R-77 AAMs. 

I was surprised to find that the F-14/AIM-54C combo is deadlier than the F-18/AIM-120C combo. The AIM-54C has a moderately longer effective range than the AIM-120C and the AI seems to have a harder time evading the AIM-54 than the AIM-120.

Not scientific or definitive, but can’t say I see any real issues with the effectiveness of the AIM-54.

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by Joch1955

[Karon]

On 12/6/2024 at 9:12 PM, teewhite7 said:

Just returned after about a year off & it seems I'm either rusty on there's been some changes to the phoenix.

I've been running a few campaigns along with speed & angels and have yet to get a successful hit with the phoenix in soft locks -with tws-
Ive had success with hard locks like 10mi or less out, but maybe out of 15 launches in tws they lose track - and ive even noticed they will travel to the same exact point and collide...which is a bit strange to me. ive never seen that happen even if both lose track, that they go to the exact same location.

Anyone seen this issue?

A simple way to tell is how the DDD looked. I am unfamiliar with such a campaign and particular situation, but 99% of the time, you can tell on the DDD when the TWS is about to go stupid. Not enough players keep an eye on it post-launch, though — and I don't mean you in particular.

Also:

• why STT at 10nm?
• can you provide footage / tacview?

[draconus]

5 hours ago, Karon said:

A simple way to tell is how the DDD looked. I am unfamiliar with such a campaign and particular situation, but 99% of the time, you can tell on the DDD when the TWS is about to go stupid.

In SP we rely on Jester and don't go back seat to check DDD.

[Karon]

18 hours ago, draconus said:

In SP we rely on Jester and don't go back seat to check DDD.

I "play" (→ try to) in SP as well, and I do it from the backseat. Or, at least, I jump back before employing and right after that. You know ~6 seconds in advance if your track is about to get extrapolated. You also immediately see changes in geometry, id est when the target manoeuvres and approaches the MLC or ZDF bands. All it takes is a glance. Actually, two, depending on in which bar the target is.
The point is: this is a two-crew fighter jet. Jester works if you know the aircraft, but it cannot do all this basic stuff a human can. However, these are minute things that it would. Yes, this is pattern-recognition-based, but it entails recognising and contextualising a situation that might be a problem in the future and commanding the pilot to act. We can't expect Jester to do that. It's also a lot of work on HB's side for no real reason when the solution is pressing a button, checking the DDD for a few seconds, and returning to the stick monkey's seat.
What do you think?

[draconus]

9 minutes ago, Karon said:

What do you think?

Not my kind of play to jump between seats. You can't keep all tracks just with maneuvering even if you had DDD in the front. Sounds more like min-maxing than simulating if I'm in the role of the pilot.

[Karon]

No, not all of them. Most of them? Definitely yes. The DDD tells you how to use the MLC switch, when to turn preemptively, and when to accelerate or slow down, for example.

Also, min-maxing? You are playing an aeroplane that requires two crew members but on your own (the cockpits are not symmetrical) with an AI that is not even close to what an actual RIO should do (because very few would accept an AI telling them what to do), and worry about that? De gustibus, sure, but this is not min-maxing but rather filling the game's gaps.

[draconus]

3 minutes ago, Karon said:

You are playing an aeroplane that requires two crew members but on your own (the cockpits are not symmetrical) with an AI that is not even close to what an actual RIO should do (because very few would accept an AI telling them what to do), and worry about that?

I take that into consideration and accept the facts, playing accordingly with what we have - imagine a rookie RIO. And I would have no problem with a good RIO (human or AI) telling me what to do

[Karon]

21 hours ago, draconus said:

I take that into consideration and accept the facts, playing accordingly with what we have - imagine a rookie RIO. And I would have no problem with a good RIO (human or AI) telling me what to do

Whatever works for you, mate. I am not telling you how to play

PS: HB, by popular demand, we now want this:

 

[Ivandrov]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:38 AM, Karon said:

No, not all of them. Most of them? Definitely yes. The DDD tells you how to use the MLC switch, when to turn preemptively, and when to accelerate or slow down, for example.

Also, min-maxing? You are playing an aeroplane that requires two crew members but on your own (the cockpits are not symmetrical) with an AI that is not even close to what an actual RIO should do (because very few would accept an AI telling them what to do), and worry about that? De gustibus, sure, but this is not min-maxing but rather filling the game's gaps.

I do this as well, but only because I actually know the RIO seat pretty well and there are several reasons why someone would not know what to do back there.

Even then your still not quite filling in the gaps in the AI as I find Iceman is not quite there as a Pilot in BVR either.

There's no adequate way to reach the full capability of a competent two-player crew on your own.

Edited December 14, 2024 by Ivandrov

[Rhrich]

On 12/13/2024 at 10:08 AM, draconus said:

Not my kind of play to jump between seats. You can't keep all tracks just with maneuvering even if you had DDD in the front. Sounds more like min-maxing than simulating if I'm in the role of the pilot.

Agreed. 
 

And, I’ve never tried multiplayer, but I believe I’ve read you can’t switch between seats there?

Anything that doesn’t work in all game modes doesn’t seem like proper to me. 

that said, I’ve read some of Karons work and his knowledge impresses me. 
but, the Jester must be a reasonable solution to the average player.

[WarthogOsl]

2 hours ago, Rhrich said:

Agreed. 
 

And, I’ve never tried multiplayer, but I believe I’ve read you can’t switch between seats there?

You can, though I'm not sure if there is some server side restriction that can be applied optionally, or it was just an old limitation in the past that doesn't exist any more.  Anyway, on the PvE servers I frequent, there's nothing to stop you from switching seats.

[TomcatFan1976]

Just read on Facebook that heatblur is finally improving the phoenix missile tracking. FINALLY. Thank you for that, it's been too long

1 minute ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

Just read on Facebook that heatblur is finally improving the phoenix missile tracking. FINALLY. Thank you for that, it's been too long

Now get jester to do his job and stop with the lame jokes, and it would be awesome again. Idk why when I lock someone he says they are friendly, and the turn out to be enemies and shoot me down....wtf jester

[Naquaii]

10 minutes ago, TomcatFan1976 said:

Just read on Facebook that heatblur is finally improving the phoenix missile tracking. FINALLY. Thank you for that, it's been too long

Just to clarify, this is a change in the AWG-9, nothing has been changed with the missiles themselves. But it should definitely help with some of the lost track situations.

[teewhite7]

On 12/12/2024 at 3:11 AM, Karon said:

A simple way to tell is how the DDD looked. I am unfamiliar with such a campaign and particular situation, but 99% of the time, you can tell on the DDD when the TWS is about to go stupid. Not enough players keep an eye on it post-launch, though — and I don't mean you in particular.

Also:

• why STT at 10nm?
• can you provide footage / tacview?

i guess i should note PAL also, not just stt
& because i though it was a more reliable lock

Nah, unfortunately i dont have tacview, i never really used it, using f6 & just being aware of the issue has been enough to see theres a problem.
Noone has mentioned anything relating to it, but i have a feeling that that multiple aim-54s are colliding, to me thats a big sign of something going on. Even if they lost track or something they wouldn't collide at the end of their life right? how would that even be possible if the missle physics are working properly   

[Karon]

Pulse does not guide the Phoenix. It is a glorified maddog with some angles provided until the missile magically acquires the target you locked initially. It's a launch-and-leave TWS, if you will. Add some manual loft to it, and it will go quite far. It's a neat trick to show your friends. Example here.

 

Also:

> i dont have tacview, i never really used it

> i have a feeling that that multiple aim-54s are colliding, to me thats a big sign of something going on

You have just proved why you need TacView. Jokes aside, TV is single-handedly the most important software you can add to DCS. It teaches you how things work or don't, and exponentially accelerates your growth as a virtual pilot. Grab it, it's free

Btw, I had two SD-10 collide whilst testing for my recent video about Active Radar Homing missiles, and I remember even managed to have one Phoenix chasing a previously fired one. However, the setup was outside DCS' laws of physics.