released to early access Cold War Germany discussion

[MAXsenna]

If there's anything to go by, with like Syria and Normandy 2.0. UGRA will give us something nice and adequate to start with, and each 6 months will get a ton of new fields.

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[twistking]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

Trouble is, if you cut out everything west of Bremen, you'll cut out lots of major airfields.

[...]

You can see, the suggestion basicly cuts out at least 50% (rather more) of the NATO fast jet bases, which kind of defeats it's purpose.

And that's not counting RNLAF and RBAF airfields.

RBAF Kleine Brogel IMHO at least should be in the scope. RNLAF Twente , Leeuwarden and Volkel  also should be in the scope.

Maybe make a crescent shaped cut east of Cologne and Dortmund. Basically omitting Rhein/Ruhr while maintaining a somewhat rectilinear map border...
That would cut off all of Benelux though... es ist auch nicht leicht...

Edited January 19 by twistking

[twistking]

Was there any fixed wing military aviation based in West Berlin in the 80s?

[Bremspropeller]

I don't think so, but that's an interesting question. Maybe a couple of transports on detachment. But not in the sense of their own tailcode (USAFE).

[flanker1]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb twistking:

Was there any fixed wing military aviation based in West Berlin in the 80s?

No, there were only soviet fighters over western Berlin / and a spetacular crash into the Stössensee happened 1966 with a Yak-28P from Finow, when the pilot tried to avoid a crash into public buildings and surely a lot of victims on the ground.     

Edited January 19 by flanker1

[twistking]

That makes sense...
Do you know how overflight rights were handled by the DDR/GDR?

Was there a possibility for NATO aviation to peacefully operate over West Berlin in the 80s? There was the famous Luftbrücke obviously, but that was even before the creation of the GDR, if i'm not mistaken...

I'm mostly interested in the Fulda AO, but the tactical island of West Berlin could offer some really interesting scenarios as well...

Edited January 19 by twistking

[Rick Mave]

2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

If there's anything to go by, with like Syria and Normandy 2.0. UGRA will give us something nice and adequate to start with, and each 6 months will get a ton of new fields.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Yeah I agree, I am super happy that Ugra media is taking this on. These days that's definitely a sign of good, quality content to come.

[Pingodingo]

42 minutes ago, Rick Mave said:

Yeah I agree, I am super happy that Ugra media is taking this on. These days that's definitely a sign of good, quality content to come.

We believe in Ugra!

[twistking]

Berlin in the 80s hits so much harder than it does today.

I hope Ugra nails the night lighting with the brightly lit death strip cutting through its core. I could imagine non-combat sorties in support of some special operations going on in the November mist; Keeping a trenchcoat wearing guy in the TGP while trying to avoid WWIII by not entering restricted airspace...

Edited January 20 by twistking

[Rick Mave]

7 hours ago, twistking said:

Berlin in the 80s hits so much harder than it does today.

I hope Ugra nails the night lighting with the brightly lit death strip cutting through its core. I could imagine non-combat sorties in support of some special operations going on in the November mist; Keeping a trenchcoat wearing guy in the TGP while trying to avoid WWIII by not entering restricted airspace...

Or you know, something normal like an RF-4 sortie up and down the iron curtain.

[Apache 64]

Am 19.1.2025 um 15:20 schrieb Bremspropeller:

SNIP....Trouble is, if you cut out everything west of Bremen, you'll cut out lots of major airfields....SNIP

...we are already further west than Bremen, as I saw Mendig EDRE in the video 2025 and beyond.

So at least Ramstein would be relatively safe. Let´s hope the best.

[Rick Mave]

6 hours ago, Apache 64 said:

...we are already further west than Bremen, as I saw Mendig EDRE in the video 2025 and beyond.

So at least Ramstein would be relatively safe. Let´s hope the best.

Nicely spotted!

[EricToGo]

As someone from the north of the region I hope they include Schleswig-Holstein with it's airfields as there were quite a bunch here in the 1980, with some still being very relevant up until today.
Namely:
-Schleswig-Jagel (Still housing Tornados of the TaktLwG 51. Hosted Tiger Meet in 2004, 2014 and 2024 and AirDefender23)
-Hohn (Still operational, now allocated to the TaktLwG 51 as well, but having operated C-160 up until 2021)
-Eggebek (Previously used by the Marineflieger with Starfighters and Tornados until 2005)
-Leck (Previously used by the AG52 operating Starfighters and later RF-4 Phantoms until 1993. Hosted Tiger Meet in '67, '75 and '84 and US aircraft for REFORGER 82)
-Husum-Schwesing (Less important, operated G.91 and the Alpha Jet from 1980 onwards)
-Westerland/Sylt (Also less important, was used as a secondary location for training the Marineflieger units)
-Itzehoe (Heeresflieger operating Hueys, Bo-105 and some other helos up until 2004)

On another note, close to the German border there is the danish air base Skrydstrup that has been the major danish AB throughout the entire cold war. It now is the last operational AB in Denmark and throughout history housed F-84, F-100, F-16 and now will house the danish F-35A. But since this would mean that the map would include a considerable amount of Denmark I could see why they wouldn't include it.

Edited January 21 by EricToGo

[Swiso]

Do you think an area like this will be too big compared to the other DCS maps ?

[flanker1]

way tooo big, 1/3 to half the size max. . . 

[Rick Mave]

1 hour ago, flanker1 said:

way tooo big, 1/3 to half the size max. . . 

Kola features more than 575 000 sq km land mass only...

[flanker1]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Rick Mave:

Kola features more than 575 000 sq km land mass only...

You are right, but with 5-10% population. . . in Germany we need up to 40-50%. . .  I think / hope that we will have more or less entire germany simulated, at least mostly eastern gemany and the most strategic part of western germany. Don´t forget, with all air and helikopter bases simulated - both german armies and the ones of the allies, we will reach a total lnumber of minimum 100. . . maybe more.  Dont forget the other military installation and strategic places. This was the highest armed and most dangerous place of the world for 40 years. . .     

Edited January 21 by flanker1

[MiGCap1]

8 hours ago, EricToGo said:

As someone from the north of the region I hope they include Schleswig-Holstein with it's airfields as there were quite a bunch here in the 1980, with some still being very relevant up until today.
Namely:
-Schleswig-Jagel (Still housing Tornados of the TaktLwG 51. Hosted Tiger Meet in 2004, 2014 and 2024 and AirDefender23)
-Hohn (Still operational, now allocated to the TaktLwG 51 as well, but having operated C-160 up until 2021)
-Eggebek (Previously used by the Marineflieger with Starfighters and Tornados until 2005)
-Leck (Previously used by the AG52 operating Starfighters and later RF-4 Phantoms until 1993. Hosted Tiger Meet in '67, '75 and '84 and US aircraft for REFORGER 82)
-Husum-Schwesing (Less important, operated G.91 and the Alpha Jet from 1980 onwards)
-Westerland/Sylt (Also less important, was used as a secondary location for training the Marineflieger units)
-Itzehoe (Heeresflieger operating Hueys, Bo-105 and some other helos up until 2004)

On another note, close to the German border there is the danish air base Skrydstrup that has been the major danish AB throughout the entire cold war. It now is the last operational AB in Denmark and throughout history housed F-84, F-100, F-16 and now will house the danish F-35A. But since this would mean that the map would include a considerable amount of Denmark I could see why they wouldn't include it.

I agree.

Schleswig-Holstein was called the "unsinkable aircraft carrier" in the Cold War area, as all the main jet bases (Jagel, Eggebek, Leck and Husum) as well as the transporter base Hohn were located north of the Nord-Ostsee-Kanal and therefore difficult to reach for WarPac ground troops. The same goes of course for the Danish bases. The wings located in this area belonged to NATO's AFNORTH (Air Forces Northern Europe) Command and were also responsible to defend the Baltic approaches.

Edited January 22 by MiGCap1

[Rongor]

On 1/19/2025 at 4:37 PM, twistking said:

Was there any fixed wing military aviation based in West Berlin in the 80s?

Beyond transport flights there wasn't much going on with mil fix wings.

We had 3 airfields operating in West Berlin:

Tegel (TXL-EDDT) was obviously best known for being the civilian airport of West Berlin. Being located in the French sector, French military made some use of it, though nothing noteworthy. The military apron later was handed over to the Bundeswehr for use of the Flugbereitschaft of the DoD (government/state flights)

Gatow (GWW-EDBG) was located in the British sector and 100% operated by the RAF.

Tempelhof (THF-EDDI) in the American sector was operated by the U.S. military, yet allowing regional civilian flights most of the time. Naturally, U.S. activities were much more noticeable.

In the British and French sector (I lived in the French sector until 1985) you could see the occasional patrol of an Alouette (F) or Gazelle (UK).

In the American sector, the situation was remarkably different (had moved into the American sector in 1985). I remember vividly how it felt like there was almost always a U.S. Huey not too far away. The Americans certainly did several patrols a day with Hueys sometimes, a stark difference to what I was used to when being in the British or French sectors, where you didn't notice that much military presence at all.

I can still remember almost daily battle sounds coming from the Grunewald training ranges, sometimes even tanks did some practicing. Good old times...

Edited January 22 by Rongor

[Rongor]

On 1/20/2025 at 7:28 AM, twistking said:

I hope Ugra nails the night lighting with the brightly lit death strip cutting through its core. I could imagine non-combat sorties in support of some special operations going on in the November mist; Keeping a trenchcoat wearing guy in the TGP while trying to avoid WWIII by not entering restricted airspace...

Not sure about this. When you look closely at all the other screenshots of the Berlin scenery, you will notice that there are sandbag barricades everywhere, so Ugra seems to create a city which is already prepared for or already in ongoing conflict. I highly doubt the border zone would've remained lit in this case.

It would certainly look good and create an eerie resemblance of how these places looked back then.

[twistking]

2 hours ago, Rongor said:

Beyond transport flights there wasn't much going on with mil fix wings. [...]

Do you know how overflight rights were handled? Was there a corridor that was generally open for NATO aviation, or were permissions needed per flight?

2 hours ago, Rongor said:

[...] When you look closely at all the other screenshots of the Berlin scenery, you will notice that there are sandbag barricades everywhere, so Ugra seems to create a city which is already prepared for or already in ongoing conflict. I highly doubt the border zone would've remained lit in this case.

It would certainly look good and create an eerie resemblance of how these places looked back then.

Berlin in "ongoing conflict" would have been a heap of rubble after a few hours, so i don't think that Ugra are aiming for that. I also doubt that the death strip would have gone dark in times of heightened tension.
Speaking of lights: In the 2000s you could still clearly spot the borders of old west Berlin from the air, because of difference in street lighting.
I wonder what the situation would have been in the 80s. If street light apartheid was a thing back then, then Ugra should also try to replicate that.

*edit* I assume that both West and East used gas lamps, but Western ones were just cooler/brighter (?).

Edited January 22 by twistking

[Rongor]

2 hours ago, twistking said:

Do you know how overflight rights were handled? Was there a corridor that was generally open for NATO aviation, or were permissions needed per flight?

Airspace was strictly handled according to the Four Power Agreements, under permanent control of a joint center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Air_Safety_Centre
All allied flights had to follow the 3 defined traffic corridors between Berlin and Western Germany. 
No NATO aviation here, keep in mind this was based on an agreement between the 4 victors of WW2, not between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. While any failed deconfliction would likely have ended with a Pact/NATO standoff, it was a purely quadripartite issue.

 

2 hours ago, twistking said:

Speaking of lights: In the 2000s you could still clearly spot the borders of old west Berlin from the air, because of difference in street lighting.
I wonder what the situation would have been in the 80s. If street light apartheid was a thing back then, then Ugra should also try to replicate that.

*edit* I assume that both West and East used gas lamps, but Western ones were just cooler/brighter (?).

East Germany had introduced hgh pressure sodium-vapor-lamps to save electrical power consumption.

Edited January 22 by Rongor

[twistking]

45 minutes ago, Rongor said:

[...] East Germany had ntroduced hgh pressure sodium-vapor-lamps to save electrical power consumption.

Makes sense. They needed the power for the death strip and "Erichs Lampenladen"...
Jokes aside, that DOES mean the situation must have been similar in the 80, with East Berlin being lit mostly by orange sodium-vapor-lamps. I hope Ugra can replicate this!

45 minutes ago, Rongor said:

Airspace was strictly handled according to the Four Power Agreements, under permanent control of a joint center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Air_Safety_Centre

Thanks! I've read through the wiki article, but i'm still unsure about combat capable aircraft. I assume the corridors would have been open for them, although it's a strange idea to have combat capable aircraft flying over "enemy" territory without causing major diplomatic headaches...

*edit* Did more reading: Corridors were only open to non-combat aircraft.

Edited January 22 by twistking

[motoadve]

How hard would it be to make a WWII version, its needed, lot less houses, lots of destroyed cities. np modern buildings

[Swiso]

If the map is called "German Cold War", as Wags named it, then i would be pretty sure that both Bitburg and Spangs will be there...

Spangs in regard to the F4 Phantom

Bitburg for the F15...the C version is in development.

It will make no sense to release a Cold War map of Germany without having those two bases IMHO.