Nicest eye-candy?

[Betting]

The coolest thing I've seen in this game was when I got killed by a TOW missile, well that wasn't cool in itself, but I went to enemy vehicle and I was lucky enough to see the Bradley that killed me. It's ToW launcher was retracting down again after having launched the missile and killed the threat (i.e. me). I was extremely impressed by seeing that :).

[always0utfr0nt]

I will admit its a cool effect, yet it annoys me to know that a M2/M3 will use a TOW missile on you. Its completely inaccurate. Imagine my surprise when I went to engage some and staying well out of the 3000M range of the HE rounds of the 25mm cannon when I see a puff of smoke and a TOW missile hits me out of the sky. Yes it is possible, yet VERY unlikely and hard to do. It is hard enough to hit a moving ground target. Not to mention the Bradley's that they have dont have the optics to be able to effectively see and identify the target at the max range. This is a great game, I love it, and I dont think this needs to be worked on right away by any means. I am just hoping that this gets included in the fix when and if ED updates the ground AI.

[Groove]

HELICOPTER ENGAGEMENT

Enemy armor is the primary threat to friendly ground forces employed in forward areas.

The primary mission of the TOW is the destruction of these tanks at the greatest possible

range. However, TOW gunners can also successfully engage attacking enemy

helicopters, which are a significant threat to ground forces.

 

5-6. OPERATIONAL CONCEPT

Engaging helicopters with the TOW should be considered primarily as a means of

self-defense. TOW crews should not consider helicopters as a routine target of

opportunity, but they should leave them to conventional ADA assets when possible.

 

a. TOW positions are selected to cover armor avenues of approach, but these

long-range fields of fire also facilitate the engagement of aircraft. The section leader’s,

squad leader’s, and crew’s observation from these positions can provide the early

warning required to successfully engage aircraft.

 

b. The engagement of attacking helicopters should be done by TOW sections, not

individual weapon systems. TOW sections should automatically engage helicopters that

are attacking their positions. If one squad in a section is being attacked by a helicopter,

the other squad should engage the helicopter while the first squad seeks cover. TOW

crews and sections should be trained to automatically respond to helicopter attacks in this

manner.

 

5-7. GUNNERY TRAINING

Specific gunnery training is required to track a helicopter with a TOW. Crews should

perform the training according to the following conditions and standards. In addition to

these outdoor training exercises, a number of scenarios for the TGT include helicopters as

targets.

 

a. Conditions. Training takes place during daylight on a range. The TOW crew is

given either a ground- or vehicle-mounted TOW with a TFTT and a helicopter mounted

with TFTT reflectors. The helicopter moves toward the TOW gunner at speeds between

40 and 80 knots and at ranges between 1,000 and 3,500 meters. Three target angles are

used for tracking: head-on; approaching at 30 degrees; and an evasive track with a

90-degree turn.

 

b. Standards. Within 5 seconds the gunner must acquire and begin tracking the

target. He must get a hit 6 out of 10 times with the TFTT.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Amen...

[always0utfr0nt]

I have been in the US Army for 6 years now, with almost all of it on the M3A2 and the new M3A3 CMOD1 in every position in the vehicle. Never once have we engaged helicopters with TOW missiles in training or any other sort. On top of the I have never heard anything along as far as instructions of using the TOW against helicopters. The chance of hitting compared to the threat of having to be visible to the threat is too high. You have to continually expose yourself to use the TOW, not to mention too high of movements can cause the wire to break and you have wasted the missile. Not to mention it will go with the type of missile you are shooting. Certain TOW's (the TOW 2B for example uses an top-down warhead to destroy the enemy vehicle and it purposely engages the target higher than normal because it has to shoot its warhead down on the top of the armor. This means that if you shoot it at a helicopter it will engage it high. If you are within 3000 meters you can use the HE rounds to more harass the helicopter than anything else hoping he will go away seeing how most helicopters are armored to an extent. If the helicopter does get within 2200 meters or engage with AP rounds, which is the recommended way to engage the helicopter to begin with. This has been a topic I have asked several Bradley Master Gunner qualified people about and they agree. To shoot a TOW at a helicopter is almost suicide. Hide instead and use smoke/maneuver tactics to get the helicopter to get in closer if you must destroy it.

[Betting]

Well, these weren't the replies I was looking for ... hehe. Still, something interesting has come out of it :)

[aphelion79]

/popcorn

lol Something intersting indeed!

 

Whats on paper vs. what's actually done, goes to show that training of these sorts arn't used anymore because its impractical... sure if you're standing 100% still and sitting there a TOW might hit you, but you have to realize you... as the shooter... are also sitting there zeroing in the chopper who very well might see you and launch an ATG missile.

 

Sure its possible, and perhaps even trained... but is it very smart? Is it something you'd prefer to do in a combat environment? Probably not I'd say...

[always0utfr0nt]

Exactly what I meant by it. You can technically shoot down helicopters with main gun from a M1 as well, hell you probably would have a better chance of hitting the target seeing how the computer targeting systems on the M1 are tremendously better than anything the A2 bradley or even the A2 ODS versions have. Also where did that training segment come from? As I was reading over it it says in the training part that you use it either dismounted or mounted, that means it wasnt from a Bradley training manual from which I was referring to in the first place. Bradleys wouldn't shoot a TOW at a helicopter, at least not a sane one. It just wouldn't happen. The cannon on the weapon is much better weapon to use.

 

Which brings me to another point about the Bradley in the game, they can shoot the TOW on the move. Another thing that is not possible. The Bradley when moving more than 5 mp/h will automatically drop the TOW launcher so it will not break the hydraulics on it. Another thing is the STAB system in the bradley is not capable of holding the weapon steady at anything more than a slow speed, the wire would break. I tested it out yesterday and set the speed of the M2 at 40 km/h and sure enough when I was in range they fired at me with TOW's. How they fired broadside with TOW's at this speed is beyond me.

[LukeFF]

Which brings me to another point about the Bradley in the game, they can shoot the TOW on the move. Another thing that is not possible. The Bradley when moving more than 5 mp/h will automatically drop the TOW launcher so it will not break the hydraulics on it. Another thing is the STAB system in the bradley is not capable of holding the weapon steady at anything more than a slow speed, the wire would break. I tested it out yesterday and set the speed of the M2 at 40 km/h and sure enough when I was in range they fired at me with TOW's. How they fired broadside with TOW's at this speed is beyond me.

 

The BMP-1s and -2s also exhibit this problem. They will fire their ATGMs on the move, all the time, when in reality the vehicle has to be at a stop.

[MBot]

Here is another piece that supports the idea of engaging helicopters with TOW:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/44-8/ch5.htm

 

I guess this is a relict of a time when helicopters were considered a lot more common threats on the battlefield (WP armies). I agree that ground units currently engage too much with ATGM in Black Shark, as has been said Bradleys need to stop to employ TOW and they should do so only in selfe defense. But for now I prefer they use the TOW too much rather than not at all.

[Griffin]

Today I got hit by AT-3 shot from BMP-1. I was flying perpendicular to it 2.5 - 3 km away at speed somewhere between 50 to 100 km/h. Even though the BMP was stationary, it's still quite amazing accuracy by MCLOS weapon. Made it back home with one engine.

So please ED pimp my.. I mean something should be done.

Enjoying the sim anyway!

[nomdeplume]

They definitely shouldn't fire on the move if it's impossible in reality. I notice tanks seem to stop before firing when attacking other ground vehicles, so this logic seems to be in the game - possibly it's not capable of stopping until the weapon hits/misses.

 

Discussion of real-life practicality is only of limited value though - DCS ground vehicles have no ability to react to threats beyond firing whatever weapons they have. They cannot utilise the terrain for cover, or move to locations where ADA assets are available. If you were operating under some bizarre ROE that stated you had to continue traveling in a straight line at a constant speed to your next waypoint when under attack, you'd probably take pot shots with any weapon you had. Better than just sitting there and waiting to be picked off one by one.

[Oceandar]

Nice reading, thank you ;)