No stick displacement in Force feedback ?

[FZG_Immel]

Question. when trimming my plane on the elevator axis, the stick doesnt move like in any other warbird. The trim tab should move and that should have an effect on the stick depending on the airspeed. right now the trim acts directly on the control surface. this is wrong

 

Is this a bug ?

A missing feature ?

 

thanks

Edited Tuesday at 09:09 PM by FZG_Immel

[GTFreeFlyer]

I don’t think it’s implemented yet.  I’m with the AB9 base and don’t have the trim working like that either.  Also, the stick shakes much too much in small G maneuvers not close to stall.  It’s better than nothing and I’m happy there’s this initial implementation to play with for now.  

[FZG_Immel]

hopefully it gets adressed. this is an immersion killer

[peachmonkey]

My Rhino FFB doesn't move when I trim in fw190a8, fw190D9, K4, P47, and Mosquito. Why is it supposed to move in F4U?

[Cgjunk2]

I'm not sure if this was already noted elsewhere, but I noticed that the position of the visual stick in the cockpit doesn't change in relation to trim either.     

 

5 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

My Rhino FFB doesn't move when I trim in fw190a8, fw190D9, K4, P47, and Mosquito. Why is it supposed to move in F4U?

The stick position should change based on the trim on all of those.  In real life, the stick cannot remain in the center, because that means the control surface is also "centered". If the control surface were to remain centered all the time, it could only fly one speed without increasing or decreasing in altitude.  The faster the plane goes, the more lift it makes, requiring forward stick pressure to maintain altitude at the new higher speed (and vice-versa).   In real life, trim is used to relieve those pressures, so the stick can stay in that new position without you having to push to keep it in the required position. 

Edited yesterday at 03:22 AM by Cgjunk2

[peachmonkey]

9 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

I'm not sure if this was already noted elsewhere, but I noticed that the position of the visual stick in the cockpit doesn't change in relation to trim either.     

 

The stick position should change based on the trim on all of those.  In real life, the stick cannot remain in the center, because that means the control surface is also "centered". If the control surface were to remain centered all the time, it could only fly one speed without increasing or decreasing in altitude.  The faster the plane goes, the more lift it makes, requiring forward stick pressure to maintain altitude at the new higher speed (and vice-versa).   In real life, trim is used to relieve those pressures, so the stick can stay in that new position without you having to push to keep it in the required position. 

I get what you're saying, I'm not an expert, however doesn't P47 has special trim tabs that are controlled by the trim wheel? I.e. when trimming you're not moving the main control surface but a tiny little 'tabs' on them. Do these trim tabs exert pressure on the main surface and cause it to deflect (therefore moving the stick in the cockpit), or do the tabs simply change the airflow just enough to affect the aerodynamics of the plane therefore changing its attitude/aoa/etc. ?

In case of K4 and fw190s the elevator trim is done by moving the whole stabilizer (not just the elevator surface), so again, I'm not sure how that'll affect the stick position in the cockpit, somehow it tells me that it won't... 

Edited 18 hours ago by peachmonkey

[Art-J]

5 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

[...] I.e. when trimming you're not moving the main control surface but a tiny little 'tabs' on them. Do these trim tabs exert pressure on the main surface and cause it to deflect (therefore moving the stick in the cockpit) [...]

Yes, that's what principle of operation of any trim tab in any aircraft is, no matter whether it's articulated by wheel, hat switch or whatever.

Thus, in these planes which feature trim tabs and have control surfaces directly connected to control sticks, yokes and pedals, the latter want to move when trimming - unless pilot is strong enough to keep the controls fixed in place of course - then he will "only" feel force changes.

FFB sticks should move a bit then for us gamers as well. If they don't in some modules, it means FFB implementation in FM is not yet complete, or FFB software of device itself needs further development as well.

[GTFreeFlyer]

Yup, the control surface is free-floating on the hinge and just aligns itself so that pressure on the top and bottom are equal.  If you want to trim the nose up, the trim tab on the elevator actually moves DOWN, which causes more pressure underneath the elevator, lifting it up until the aerodynamics are balanced again, and now you have a little bit of up elevator to pitch the nose up.  The control cables go from the yoke/stick to the elevator, so when that elevator takes a new position it pulls the stick along as well to a new center point.  

Hope that makes sense

 

Note, things are different when it’s fly-by-wire. But we don’t worry much about that in Warbird threads

[peachmonkey]

2 hours ago, Art-J said:

Yes, that's what principle of operation of any trim tab in any aircraft is, no matter whether it's articulated by wheel, hat switch or whatever.

Thus, in these planes which feature trim tabs and have control surfaces directly connected to control sticks, yokes and pedals, the latter want to move when trimming - unless pilot is strong enough to keep the controls fixed in place of course - then he will "only" feel force changes.

FFB sticks should move a bit then for us gamers as well. If they don't in some modules, it means FFB implementation in FM is not yet complete, or FFB software of device itself needs further development as well.

ok, gotcha, so this 'movement' can then only be observed/felt while traveling at speed, and not on the ground, i.e. essentially a change to the spring center force. Well, I fly the 190A and D9 all the time and use the elevator trim to adjust for fuel changes and I never felt this 'change' in the Rhino FFB... and the spring center force comes from DCS, so I doubt it's Rhino's fault..  Headscratcher... 

 

[Cgjunk2]

6 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

ok, gotcha, so this 'movement' can then only be observed/felt while traveling at speed, and not on the ground, i.e. essentially a change to the spring center force. Well, I fly the 190A and D9 all the time and use the elevator trim to adjust for fuel changes and I never felt this 'change' in the Rhino FFB... and the spring center force comes from DCS, so I doubt it's Rhino's fault..  Headscratcher... 

 

You mentioned that trim on the german models is caused by moving the entire (fixed) portion of the horizontal stabilizer.  Interesting...I never studied how those work, so I'm not sure how that would translate to changes in the stick position as the airplane is trimmed to hold different speeds.   The other airplanes that have trim tabs, however, should end up in a different position after trimming.  It would end up in the position that you were holding to maintain level flight...except after trimming, you wouldn't feel the forces needed to maintain level flight (and you would be able to go "hands off" for short periods of time without the plane immediately changing altitude.  

Regarding your FFB stick...  do you actually have to return the stick to "center" after trimming?  Because if the position isn't in a different place after trimming, as you say...then that means it would have to go back to some sort of preset center position, which is exactly what happens on a regular non-FFB stick.  That would be very odd.    But...maybe it is actually changing position on your FFB, but you don't actually notice it?  Ironically, if you are trimming using "correct" technique, you should be using the stick to hold level altitude, and then trim button to "relieve forces" at that new position.   So maybe you are trimming correctly, so you're not seeing the stick move per se...just feeling the relieved pressure otherwise needed hold it in position.  You should be able to verify it's working correctly in flight by just using the trim, if you just use the trim without putting pressure on the stick.   As it trims to a new position, you should see your stick move without needing to touch the stick itself (besides the trim hat if you use that for trim).  Hopefully it actually works on your other planes...since 100 percent of the true purpose of FFB is precisely to simulate trimming forces/stick forces.   

By the way, if stopped on the ground, the stick just falls forward...if the the elevator is heavy enough to droop from gravity.  Once you have a little prop blast or airspeed, the air picks it up, which moves the stick along with it (since it's mechanically directly linked via cable/pulleys, or pushrods).  The only planes where it might not fall forward is on planes that have balanced "stabilators" (like Piper Archers, Arrows, etc), where the entire horizontal stabilizer rotates around one axis in order make pitch changes on the airplane.  

Edited 4 hours ago by Cgjunk2