No stick displacement in Force feedback ?

[FZG_Immel]

Question. when trimming my plane on the elevator axis, the stick doesnt move like in any other warbird. The trim tab should move and that should have an effect on the stick depending on the airspeed. right now the trim acts directly on the control surface. this is wrong

 

Is this a bug ?

A missing feature ?

 

thanks

Edited August 5 by FZG_Immel

[GTFreeFlyer]

I don’t think it’s implemented yet.  I’m with the AB9 base and don’t have the trim working like that either.  Also, the stick shakes much too much in small G maneuvers not close to stall.  It’s better than nothing and I’m happy there’s this initial implementation to play with for now.  

[FZG_Immel]

hopefully it gets adressed. this is an immersion killer

[peachmonkey]

My Rhino FFB doesn't move when I trim in fw190a8, fw190D9, K4, P47, and Mosquito. Why is it supposed to move in F4U?

[Cgjunk2]

I'm not sure if this was already noted elsewhere, but I noticed that the position of the visual stick in the cockpit doesn't change in relation to trim either.     

 

5 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

My Rhino FFB doesn't move when I trim in fw190a8, fw190D9, K4, P47, and Mosquito. Why is it supposed to move in F4U?

The stick position should change based on the trim on all of those.  In real life, the stick cannot remain in the center, because that means the control surface is also "centered". If the control surface were to remain centered all the time, it could only fly one speed without increasing or decreasing in altitude.  The faster the plane goes, the more lift it makes, requiring forward stick pressure to maintain altitude at the new higher speed (and vice-versa).   In real life, trim is used to relieve those pressures, so the stick can stay in that new position without you having to push to keep it in the required position. 

Edited August 6 by Cgjunk2

[peachmonkey]

9 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

I'm not sure if this was already noted elsewhere, but I noticed that the position of the visual stick in the cockpit doesn't change in relation to trim either.     

 

The stick position should change based on the trim on all of those.  In real life, the stick cannot remain in the center, because that means the control surface is also "centered". If the control surface were to remain centered all the time, it could only fly one speed without increasing or decreasing in altitude.  The faster the plane goes, the more lift it makes, requiring forward stick pressure to maintain altitude at the new higher speed (and vice-versa).   In real life, trim is used to relieve those pressures, so the stick can stay in that new position without you having to push to keep it in the required position. 

I get what you're saying, I'm not an expert, however doesn't P47 has special trim tabs that are controlled by the trim wheel? I.e. when trimming you're not moving the main control surface but a tiny little 'tabs' on them. Do these trim tabs exert pressure on the main surface and cause it to deflect (therefore moving the stick in the cockpit), or do the tabs simply change the airflow just enough to affect the aerodynamics of the plane therefore changing its attitude/aoa/etc. ?

In case of K4 and fw190s the elevator trim is done by moving the whole stabilizer (not just the elevator surface), so again, I'm not sure how that'll affect the stick position in the cockpit, somehow it tells me that it won't... 

Edited August 6 by peachmonkey

[Art-J]

5 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

[...] I.e. when trimming you're not moving the main control surface but a tiny little 'tabs' on them. Do these trim tabs exert pressure on the main surface and cause it to deflect (therefore moving the stick in the cockpit) [...]

Yes, that's what principle of operation of any trim tab in any aircraft is, no matter whether it's articulated by wheel, hat switch or whatever.

Thus, in these planes which feature trim tabs and have control surfaces directly connected to control sticks, yokes and pedals, the latter want to move when trimming - unless pilot is strong enough to keep the controls fixed in place of course - then he will "only" feel force changes.

FFB sticks should move a bit then for us gamers as well. If they don't in some modules, it means FFB implementation in FM is not yet complete, or FFB software of device itself needs further development as well.

[GTFreeFlyer]

Yup, the control surface is free-floating on the hinge and just aligns itself so that pressure on the top and bottom are equal.  If you want to trim the nose up, the trim tab on the elevator actually moves DOWN, which causes more pressure underneath the elevator, lifting it up until the aerodynamics are balanced again, and now you have a little bit of up elevator to pitch the nose up.  The control cables go from the yoke/stick to the elevator, so when that elevator takes a new position it pulls the stick along as well to a new center point.  

Hope that makes sense

 

Note, things are different when it’s fly-by-wire. But we don’t worry much about that in Warbird threads

[peachmonkey]

2 hours ago, Art-J said:

Yes, that's what principle of operation of any trim tab in any aircraft is, no matter whether it's articulated by wheel, hat switch or whatever.

Thus, in these planes which feature trim tabs and have control surfaces directly connected to control sticks, yokes and pedals, the latter want to move when trimming - unless pilot is strong enough to keep the controls fixed in place of course - then he will "only" feel force changes.

FFB sticks should move a bit then for us gamers as well. If they don't in some modules, it means FFB implementation in FM is not yet complete, or FFB software of device itself needs further development as well.

ok, gotcha, so this 'movement' can then only be observed/felt while traveling at speed, and not on the ground, i.e. essentially a change to the spring center force. Well, I fly the 190A and D9 all the time and use the elevator trim to adjust for fuel changes and I never felt this 'change' in the Rhino FFB... and the spring center force comes from DCS, so I doubt it's Rhino's fault..  Headscratcher... 

 

[Cgjunk2]

6 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

ok, gotcha, so this 'movement' can then only be observed/felt while traveling at speed, and not on the ground, i.e. essentially a change to the spring center force. Well, I fly the 190A and D9 all the time and use the elevator trim to adjust for fuel changes and I never felt this 'change' in the Rhino FFB... and the spring center force comes from DCS, so I doubt it's Rhino's fault..  Headscratcher... 

 

You mentioned that trim on the german models is caused by moving the entire (fixed) portion of the horizontal stabilizer.  Interesting...I never studied how those work, so I'm not sure how that would translate to changes in the stick position as the airplane is trimmed to hold different speeds.   The other airplanes that have trim tabs, however, should end up in a different position after trimming.  It would end up in the position that you were holding to maintain level flight...except after trimming, you wouldn't feel the forces needed to maintain level flight (and you would be able to go "hands off" for short periods of time without the plane immediately changing altitude.  

Regarding your FFB stick...  do you actually have to return the stick to "center" after trimming?  Because if the position isn't in a different place after trimming, as you say...then that means it would have to go back to some sort of preset center position, which is exactly what happens on a regular non-FFB stick.  That would be very odd.    But...maybe it is actually changing position on your FFB, but you don't actually notice it?  Ironically, if you are trimming using "correct" technique, you should be using the stick to hold level altitude, and then trim button to "relieve forces" at that new position.   So maybe you are trimming correctly, so you're not seeing the stick move per se...just feeling the relieved pressure otherwise needed hold it in position.  You should be able to verify it's working correctly in flight by just using the trim, if you just use the trim without putting pressure on the stick.   As it trims to a new position, you should see your stick move without needing to touch the stick itself (besides the trim hat if you use that for trim).  Hopefully it actually works on your other planes...since 100 percent of the true purpose of FFB is precisely to simulate trimming forces/stick forces.   

By the way, if stopped on the ground, the stick just falls forward...if the the elevator is heavy enough to droop from gravity.  Once you have a little prop blast or airspeed, the air picks it up, which moves the stick along with it (since it's mechanically directly linked via cable/pulleys, or pushrods).  The only planes where it might not fall forward is on planes that have balanced "stabilators" (like Piper Archers, Arrows, etc), where the entire horizontal stabilizer rotates around one axis in order make pitch changes on the airplane.  

Edited August 7 by Cgjunk2

[Number481]

14 hours ago, peachmonkey said:

ok, gotcha, so this 'movement' can then only be observed/felt while traveling at speed, and not on the ground, i.e. essentially a change to the spring center force. Well, I fly the 190A and D9 all the time and use the elevator trim to adjust for fuel changes and I never felt this 'change' in the Rhino FFB... and the spring center force comes from DCS, so I doubt it's Rhino's fault..  Headscratcher... 

 

I can't say with certainty for the others you mentioned, but for the 190A8, P47 and Mosquito, elevator trim most certainly alters the center position of the FFB Spring effect.  Take a look at the active spring effect on the configurator debug tab and you will see.

Now, on the 190A8 specifically, it is not done very well.  The elevator trim is quite sensitive in the aircraft itself, but the spring center point doesn't move very much at all.  The result is that you still need to significantly manually alter the joystick position to counteract how fast the trim is moving, much like you would need to with a sprung joystick.  

If it were done "properly", you would simply hold the position of the stick and trim to relieve pressure.  But there's not very much about the native DCS FFB implementation that is done 'properly'.

[peachmonkey]

@Cgjunk2 @Number481 got it, guys, I guess I just more sensitive hands lol   But if the debug shows the spring center moving during the trim then I most definitely blame ED for the the 'slop' near the center of the stick... which technically may not even be that sloppy, it's just the FFB center spring dynamic range is very short, i.e. on the ground it's limp, and after the take off and past the 220-240km/h the center force reaches its max. In reality the stick center needs to get progressively harder to move the faster the plane flies, alas DCS doesn't provide for it.  I think TelemFFB may come to the rescue here, I saw they started incorporating the new Rhino capability of the dynamic spring center, so the stick gets harder lol the faster you go, and thus would make the trim forces a bit more apparent.

[-0303-]

On 8/7/2025 at 4:00 AM, Cgjunk2 said:

The only planes where it might not fall forward is on planes that have balanced "stabilators" (like Piper Archers, Arrows, etc), where the entire horizontal stabilizer rotates around one axis in order make pitch changes on the airplane.  

And F-86. F-86's stick has no direct connection between stick and elevator or aileron surfaces (rudder pedals are still directly mechanically connected). It's funny, the F-86 stick works exactly like a spring loaded game joystick except trim moves its center position. Hydraulics sense the stick position and moves the surfaces accordingly. The only forces the pilot feels are the springs which are there to simulate stick forces. So its stick won't fall over on the ground either. From the pilots point of view he moves the stick and trims as if it were a previous generation "traditional" mechanically directly connected stick.

This is mentioned in the manual, maybe not clearly but a DCS'er uploaded the F-86 original mechanical drawings and there one can follow how it works.

Edited August 8 by -0303-

[-Rudel-]

Just a note:
The trim tabs on the F4U do not adjust the control surfaces.
They are mechanically separated by design.
The flight stick will never adjust too.

[Vladinsky]

16 minutes ago, -Rudel- said:

Just a note:
The trim tabs on the F4U do not adjust the control surfaces.
They are mechanically separated by design.
The flight stick will never adjust too.

If this is true you have rigged the 3D model incorrectly, the trim tabs are connected to the left aileron, rudder and elevator and are not mechanically separated. Are you thinking of the servo tabs?

[-Rudel-]

The 3d file is animated correctly.
The programmers will need to remove that visual bug via code.

They'll look into it

 

Edited Saturday at 11:33 AM by -Rudel-

[Cgjunk2]

On 8/16/2025 at 5:57 AM, -Rudel- said:

Just a note:
The trim tabs on the F4U do not adjust the control surfaces.
They are mechanically separated by design.
The flight stick will never adjust too.

As an airplane increases or decreases speed, the amount of lift generated will also change.   This requires that you move *and hold * the control stick forward (nose down) or backwards (nose up) to maintain any give altitude.  This is true of any airplane where the control stick is physically connected to the elevator surfaces.

For example, if you increase speed by adding power, your airplane naturally wants to climb from the additional lift.  That means you must push forward/move control surfaces downward, *and hold* to counteract the lift of the wings if you want to maintain your current altitude.  With sufficient speed, this will mean the elevator surface will be visibly deflected in order to cause the nose to lower.   The stick in the cockpit will also be in a new position because it’s directly connected to the elevator.  If you are continually accelerating, the force needed to move the elevator further nose down to maintain altitude continues to increase greatly, to a point that the pilot would not have enough strength to continue pushing any further forward.  At that point, the plane would simply continue to climb, until you reduce your power.

Trim is necessary because it relieves the heavy forces necessary to hold the control surfaces at that new position.  This means that after you trim the airplane for a new airspeed, the control stick no longer requires force to stay in that new position necessary to maintain altitude.   But critically, as a natural consequence of the stick being physically linked to the control surface, the stick *MUST* be in a new position if you go “hands off”.  

So, in other words, the stick will be in a new position after trimming.   There is simply no way around this for planes that use cables, push-pull rods, and bell cranks to connect the stick to the control surfaces. 

My apologies for being so wordy.   The way trimming works is harder to understand when it’s being explained in words.  Once you fly an airplane and viscerally feel the control pressures and movements needed to maintain level flight as airspeed changes, it becomes much easier to understand how it works, and what it looks like when it’s used.

Force feedback joysticks were created solely to simulate these forces.  

 

Edit to add: these forces are obviously not present when the airplane is sitting still on the ground.   While it's true that  you can cause the elevator and stick to move without touching the control stick solely by using trim, this is cannot occur when the plane is still.  The trim tab affects the elevator surface only through aerodynamic forces.   And by the way, to all budding pilots out there, it's is very bad practice to "fly the plane" using trim only.   Best practice is to manipulate the stick to where it needs to be to maintain altitude, then use the trim to relieve the forces on the control stick.   Then you can remove your hand from the stick and see that the plane now roughly maintains altitude all by itself.  
 

Edited 20 hours ago by Cgjunk2

[-Rudel-]

I understand how trim works and the effects of the pressures around aircraft control surfaces.

For the F4U, I simply stated and correcting how the trim tabs operate in relation to the control surfaces.
With no lift, adjusting trim will not mechanically cause the control surfaces/flight stick to adjust also.
This aircraft just isn't designed that way.

As pointed out by @Vladinsky, in the game they are moving.
I replied that it's a bug by the programmers, and it'll be rectified.

Example of the elevator trim tab linkage below.
The screw and sprocket is the trim control.
The screw itself is fed inside through the torque tube to the bell-crank with no contact except for some ball bearing ring at the sprocket plate.
A chain/cable system is attached to the sprocket threaded to the trim control knob.
This keeps the elevator neutral regardless of the trim setting.

Now if there is pressure on the control surfaces while the trim is adjusted, yes the control surfaces will deflect along with the flight stick.
If this isn't happening in-game, we'll fix it.

[Cgjunk2]

Ah, you were only speaking about trim moving the control surface when the airplane is at zero airspeed.  Thank you for the clarification!!!   I misunderstood your previous post to mean that we should not expect the stick to move its “zero force” position when trimming in flight.  It’s a great relief to me that its not the case.  I still don’t own a FFB stick, but am really looking forward to experiencing the Corsair when I finally buy one (holding out hope for the Winwing FFB option when it releases).

Edited 18 hours ago by Cgjunk2

[Vladinsky]

Yes that makes a lot more sense. What happens right now, in flight, with FFB is that the trim tab moves and the pitching moment changes but the neutral position of the stick and control surface remain unaffected.