Sensors!!!!

[AeriaGloria]

Wonder if anyone has more insight then I have been able to glean from manuals. 
 

In FC3, I’m sure I’m not the only one that likes to constantly switch sensors. If I am in position to have IRST lock, but need to get closer, I might acquire with radar, switch to IRST, then either fire fox 2 when ready or fire fox 1 and have it switch to radar leading. 
 

And I’m sure EVERYONE has to atleast do this to IFF an IRST target. 
 

And for FF, this won’t change in that, as long as IRST is leading, you won’t get IFF. 
 

So, unlike FC3, where one sensor will pick up lost lock of other in any mode, this only happens in IRL and FF if we flip the cooperation/interaction switch forward, which will lock radar to MPRF. And HUD scale to 25 km. 
 

This seems like a meaningless gimp and asinine and dumb! Right? But it almost makes sense, MPRF range is anywhere from 18-35 km depending on altitude, background, RCS, etc, so this roughly lines up with IRST range well, though I expect many times to have IRST outrange against a rear aspect AB target. 
 

So, let’s say we acquire with IRST and need to IFF, or acquire with radar and go to silent running with IRST? After all, there are no simple radar and IRST on/off switches like FC3 leads us to expect. What I’ve figured out so far is……..

TP (IRST) mode: 

Switches to radar if Fox 1 selected 

Permanently switches to radar if Press lock before laser range 

RL mode: 

Select Fox 2 and move SUV knob to TP will switch to TP leading

IF TP selected and entered RL by selecting Fox 1, selectingFox 2 will go back to TP leading 

Its possible TP may be forced temporarily by lowering gun trigger

I also have a hunch that even without the cooperation switch, Fox 1 selection might just switch to radar no matter what. Manuals mention this frequently enough. And Su-27 does same thing. 
 

Also, complications that, I don’t know for sure but it’s possible that even without interaction/coop switch the radar may take up to 8 seconds to range an IRST target beyond laser range. Or it might be instant as long as coop switch is on

It’s a shame it can’t IFF while doing its 3 seconds ranging pulses……

So, if out of Fox 1, sucks to be you 

If out of fox2, also sucks to be you! 
 

I wonder if you fire your last fox 1, it switches to TP, you lose TP lock, then it switch back to radar as long as coop switch is forward

It’ll be interesting to see how it’s implemented on release! It’s the big unknown for me along with things like “will RWR be able to tell you about missile launches” and “will RWR actually put PD fighters in medium range SAM category beyond 20 km, or both categories light up.” 

[Кош]

Bear in mind your IRST range will be in the ballpark of 10 km now unless you're looking at an afterburner from behind since it's a R-60 seeker with extra steps IRL. They had to make a dogfight sensor with big FOV and working in any position in space.

Time to say goodbye to IRST DCSisms. For real world stealth tactic you need support from your C&C.

Edited August 7 by Кош

[AeriaGloria]

12 hours ago, Кош said:

Bear in mind your IRST range will be in the ballpark of 10 km now unless you're looking at an afterburner from behind since it's a R-60 seeker with extra steps IRL. They had to make a dogfight sensor with big FOV and working in any position in space.

Time to say goodbye to IRST DCSisms. For real world stealth tactic you need support from your C&C.

Well it’s 12 km head in against MiG-21, which is pretty small and one medium size engine. 
 

It’s more like an upscaled R-73 sensor, the R-60 uses same type of sensor as AIM-9B just better. The R-73 and KOLS use a cross type sensor that is much more flare resistant, and while R-73 sensor is a single sensor, the KOLS has 14 separate PbSe sensors, 4 in a cross and 10 in a line, and the cross ones spins at like 3000 rpm for accuracy 

Against side and tail aspect fighters in DCS, which seems to be pretty much in the ball park (can’t lock F-16 until within 10 km, worse then manual statement), I often get 35-45 km in DCS. So we’ll see.  It’s also exciting that we’ll be able to turn up or down the gain, might help acquire someone at long range with a clear background. 

Edited August 7 by AeriaGloria

[Drona]

Interesting stuff... keep it coming guys.

[AeriaGloria]

So…….. upon careful re reading of documents…… I  am enlightened to my past mistakes 
 

The sensor changing without using the knob switch is only in interaction/cooperation mode, (duh!!!). 
 

So let’s say you lock someone from TP scan mode and want to IFF. Best way is to select cooperation. Select fox 1, then un select it after seeing “C” or not. Or could switch fox1/coop sequence. 

Let’s say you enter lock from TP vertical scan, helmet, OPT, but don’t want to STT too long, you’ll have to lock with cooperation off. When you’re ready to IFF, select cooperation to see IFF status then switch coop off or it will keep giving them STT as long as laser range is present. 
 

Same with TP scan or even gun mode,  inside 6.5 km, once it gets a laser return radar just locks (now that it’s not needed for ranging). And HUD will show radar mode. 
 

 

[AeriaGloria]

.

 

Edited yesterday at 10:31 AM by AeriaGloria

[Fighter29]

I don't know how this is implemented in DCS but If you apply all this to a real aircraft, then all your conclusions are wrong. For starters: when performing a combat sortie, the FRIEND-FOE ( свой-чужой )switch MUST be set to FOE ( чужой ) . You will never see the letter «C», you simply will not be able to lock on your own target. You cannot select FOX1 in TP scan mode because the missile indicator on 1 and 2 hardpoints will be absent. The IFF function does not work in any KOLS modes, even if the target is in the lock, regardless of which channel is primary. Any manipulation of the modes in the lock will only lead to a failure of the lock. The IFF function only works in the RL mode. 

[AeriaGloria]

6 hours ago, Fighter29 said:

I don't know how this is implemented in DCS but If you apply all this to a real aircraft, then all your conclusions are wrong. For starters: when performing a combat sortie, the FRIEND-FOE ( свой-чужой )switch MUST be set to FOE ( чужой ) . You will never see the letter «C», you simply will not be able to lock on your own target. You cannot select FOX1 in TP scan mode because the missile indicator on 1 and 2 hardpoints will be absent. The IFF function does not work in any KOLS modes, even if the target is in the lock, regardless of which channel is primary. Any manipulation of the modes in the lock will only lead to a failure of the lock. The IFF function only works in the RL mode. 

Yes I am only going off the MiG-29B technical manual (interaction/cooperation section) that ED has used before in the past and is sure to use this time. I have seen it wrong before, in regards to HMS stages of symbology. But oddly a university PowerPoint that details the radar says a similar thing about interaction/cooperation mode. 
 

For example it states that if flying with TP vertical scan, OPT, Helm, with interaction/cooperation on, once you get a lock and radar locks on additionally it will switch to radar HUD view. Such that using coop with those modes is enough for IFF. 

It also goes into logic with coop switch that if radar is not used for ranging quasi scan, it will STT
 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by AeriaGloria

[Fighter29]

You are confusing the main modes with the interaction submode. Identification will not work if the rotary mode switch is not set to the RL position!!! Regardless of which channel is leading after target acquisition.

Edited 9 hours ago by Fighter29

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Fighter29 said:

You are confusing the main modes with the interaction submode. Identification will not work if the rotary mode switch is not set to the RL position!!! Regardless of which channel is leading after target acquisition.

Yes I was confusing the main modes for interaction sub mode at first. This quote you attach, is it for interaction on or off? 
 

The above passage stated when selecting R-27R in the interaction mode upon radar locking, page 71

" In this case. the SEl system displays the information of the RLPK complex in the target tracking mode, implemented by the NO19"

And in the case that both systems fully track “2. If the KOLS station was the first to switch to the target tracking mode, but the RLPK complex accompanies the target not only by angular coordinates. but also by range and approach speed, the leading complex is the RLPK complex and the controlling on-board computer is the S-31 BCVM. The SEl system operates in the target tracking mode according to the RLPK complex data,”

I wouldve thought if such a case did happen, it would show IFF as SEI show radar display. 

Same for the case described in many manuals where with interaction on, in TP strobe, if the lock button is pressed before the appearance of the laser range it will transition to full radar lock, and when laser range would appear it would transition to radar lock anyways. I would assume it would show radar lock in such a case as the manuals say it transitions to leading RLPK, but I guess it can’t be helped if not if this it’s the way things are and SUV in RL is required for IFF circuit even if HUD displays radar. 

Would love word from ED how they intend to model the system. 
 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by AeriaGloria

[AhSoul]

If the FC3 version is overperforming in terms of sensors (and other things), are they going to nerf it to bring it into line? I've got one mate who loves to fly Red but he's like 'why would I bother getting the FF version when I've got the FC3 version' and if the FC3 version performs 'better' he's even less likely to swap.....

I guess we might see server admins removing the FC3 version of course

Edited 7 hours ago by AhSoul

[AeriaGloria]

1 minute ago, AhSoul said:

If the FC3 version is overperforming in terms of sensors (and other things), are they going to nerf it to bring it into line? I've got one mate who loves to fly Red but he's like 'why would I bother getting the FF version when I've got the FC3 version' and if the FC3 version performs 'better' he's even less likely to swap.....

Well, I don’t think it would need “nerfing.” The range of the radar in FC3 is pretty much spot on. 
 

There are differences that will make it harder to use in FF though, just becuase it is realistically modeled. 
 

For example. Loco will no longer be instant but take 1-2 seconds at least. If you lock within max missile range, it will take the R-27R/ER 4 seconds to get ready before it can be fired(just like sparrow, but this process is done early in some situations). 
 

You will have less HUD symbology ( to focus on killing!). And radar/IRST won’t pick up each others lost locks unless coop is turned on which locks radar to MPRF. 
 

IRST won’t instantly range at all ranges, but the laser will be limited to 6.5 km requiring radar range beyond. 
 

So it will be a little harder to use, some things will take longer, but I expect it good users to still make a killing using its speed and altitude to throw the R-27R far and fast. 
 

If all you care about is competitiveness and beating someone, maybe not. But for me I expect to get a lot of joy from working the systems, and thus even more satisfaction from making kills. 
 

It will have an advantage in air to ground and gun modes though. AG it can calculate wind and movement for any weapon. And for gun mode, you have an alternate mode that allows you to lead a target up to 12 degrees. Whereas right now in FC3, the mode we have limits us to 6 degrees lead. 

[AhSoul]

Someone further up said the IRST range would be ~10km. I'm sure I've used the IRST in the FC3 version way further out than that?

Personally I'd always fly a FF version if there's one available. I've just got mates who don't see the increased complexity (and paying again for a jet they can already fly) as necessarily a good thing

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, AhSoul said:

Someone further up said the IRST range would be ~10km. I'm sure I've used the IRST in the FC3 version way further out than that?

Personally I'd always fly a FF version if there's one available. I've just got mates who don't see the increased complexity (and paying again for a jet they can already fly) as necessarily a good thing

IRL IRST range is 15 km detection 12 km track for head on Mil MiG-21. Add planes with bigger heat signatures, in rear aspects using possibly afterburner, and no surprised to detect 30-40 km away. 
 

Being able to range them though will be limited by MPRF detection though which would be 18-40 km depending on altitude, background, RCS, etc