I still think Kamov got the AP wrong

[My Fing ID]

I don't think the way the AP works is really the best way to do it. I believe FD should be the standard, and getting the AP to work in tandem with trim should be a flight mode. I can't remember how many crashes or close calls I've had during transitions from take off, to leaving a hover, to slowing down, to turning, because the AP is fighting me every step of the way. Next thing you know I've got the rudder locked one way, the copter trying to pull the other, and I'm 20 feet and falling.

 

You have to keep trimming every time you move the controls and for what benefit? You fly in a straight line? The controls are more hands off when not maneuvering? That's fine, but that sounds like something you need for long flights, not when transitioning from hover to move 1k to your next hover point.

 

I think it would make more sense for FD to be the standard. When you're moving short distances or transitioning into/out of turn/hover, you want that extra control. You don't want to shut off the auto hover, start turning left then suddenly have the copter jerking you right or drop the nose like a rock. Hell it even screws you up when you try to slow down or stop, constantly trying to pull the nose down while you slow. If you trim then who knows how it will end up.

 

I mean don't get me wrong, the AP/Trim works. It's especially beneficial when you're moving between 2 points that don't have INU coords or any other time you're moving long distances. However maneuverability is the helicopters friend, and when you have to make an emergency shut off of your AP any time you need to make sudden maneuvers, maybe you should re-think how your AP works.

 

Then again I'm not a helicopter pilot, just a guy with 28 hours on a flight sim :joystick:

[Distiler]

Have you patched DCS to 1.01? HDG autopilot behaviour changed a bit.

 

Otherwise, you could try to contact Kamov...

[EtherealN]

Well, respectfully, if the AP is fighting you then you are doing something wrong. I also had severe issues with the AP in the beginning, but spending a couple hours in a self-imposed flight school where I didn't even turn on the power to the weapon systems and just repeating transitions and maneuvers with trim sorted that out. Nowadays the only times where I really end up fighting it is when I decide it's a good idea to fly while having a couple empty aluminium cans next to my computer. :P

 

And it's not something that is exclusively for long flights. That is indeed part of the reason since fighting a stick for a few hours will lead to pretty severe fatigue (I've had flights IRL where after landing I felt like my right arm was completely useless) which obviously can cause accidents.

 

But there's another point to it: this is a single-seater. When moving a click ahead you might be having reason to work your ABRIS, or PVI-800, or the weapon systems, or just plain focus on your Shkval. With good use of the trimmer you can go immediately from transitioning to forward flight to setting up your systems without having to constantly throw you hand back to the stick.

 

Generally speaking, the symptoms you describe really do sound like you just need more practice. I definitely recognize them from early flying but not now. I'm still not perfect at cyclic-collective synchronization and all that, but I have no problem flying and maneuvering and performing all transitions I want with AP channels active.

 

In the same vein, the helicopter jerking around when you disconnect auto-hover sound like you just weren't trimmed when entering the auto-hover.

 

And finally, emergency shutoff of the AP for sudden maneuvers? That really is not necessary. Again, this does sound like a symptom of just not being practiced with the trimmer, not an inherent problem of the AP system.

[My Fing ID]

I patched it. Like I said the AP is fine, for long distance flights, it's just when you need to maneuver you have to do a lot more work than you should. I mean look at coming up to a hill so you can pop up and shoot a tank.

 

First you have to slow down. Either you can drop collective and pull back while fighting the AP, or you can drop and pull then hit trim, which may or may not fling your nose an extra 10 or so degrees. Yet if you fight it you have to keep pulling back further to counter the AP while also trying to keep a good angle so you don't pop up or drop like a rock. Then you have to level out, trim, move the collective, trim. Next you have to pull back until you stop, trim. Hit the auto hover, trim. level the collective, trim, then start hitting buttons and preparing for engagement.

 

If you did it with the FD you'd just drop and pull, not have to fight any AP so you're going to have much better control, level, drop and pull to a complete stop, hit the Auto hover, then start triming out again and getting ready to engage.

 

Now lets say you pop up, shoot the tank, and get engaged by AAA from your flank (god only knows where it came from). With the AP you need to either:

 

1) pull the emergency AP disengage and lose all AP/stability while trying to quickly manuever out of range or

 

2) Turn off auto hover and hope you can trim your way away without locking the rudder, getting a bad angle, suddenly shifting 10 degrees + up/down, or any of the other problems that happen when trying to quickly maneuver in a tense situation with the AP on.

 

If FD were the default, you'd just disengage auto hover and be able to quickly and accurately maneuver away.

 

Anyways just my thoughts, I'm sure Kamov had their reason, I just don't see it. Also I'm not calling them. I don't think they're going to change anything because some sim jockey in America doesn't understand what they were thinking lol.

[My Fing ID]

Well, respectfully, if the AP is fighting you then you are doing something wrong. I also had severe issues with the AP in the beginning, but spending a couple hours in a self-imposed flight school where I didn't even turn on the power to the weapon systems and just repeating transitions and maneuvers with trim sorted that out. Nowadays the only times where I really end up fighting it is when I decide it's a good idea to fly while having a couple empty aluminium cans next to my computer. :P

 

And it's not something that is exclusively for long flights. That is indeed part of the reason since fighting a stick for a few hours will lead to pretty severe fatigue (I've had flights IRL where after landing I felt like my right arm was completely useless) which obviously can cause accidents.

 

But there's another point to it: this is a single-seater. When moving a click ahead you might be having reason to work your ABRIS, or PVI-800, or the weapon systems, or just plain focus on your Shkval. With good use of the trimmer you can go immediately from transitioning to forward flight to setting up your systems without having to constantly throw you hand back to the stick.

 

Generally speaking, the symptoms you describe really do sound like you just need more practice. I definitely recognize them from early flying but not now. I'm still not perfect at cyclic-collective synchronization and all that, but I have no problem flying and maneuvering and performing all transitions I want with AP channels active.

 

In the same vein, the helicopter jerking around when you disconnect auto-hover sound like you just weren't trimmed when entering the auto-hover.

 

And finally, emergency shutoff of the AP for sudden maneuvers? That really is not necessary. Again, this does sound like a symptom of just not being practiced with the trimmer, not an inherent problem of the AP system.

 

I certainly can use more practice, especially since my girl just picked me up a TrackIR for Christmas. God that thing hurts my head and has made flying, different, but I'm getting better. Still I just don't see the need for setting the AP continuously for every maneuver/transition. It just seems like an over complication. I see what you're saying about messing with the equipment, and that makes sense, but maybe a quick AP toggle that operated similar to the way the Auto Hover does would have been a better idea than full on AP all the time. I mean weapons can be fired on the move from the throttle/collective, and I'd say the only real time I'm messing with controls is either while moving long distances or in a hover before I engage. Even when on the move and engaging the only switch I have to look over and flip is the laser.

[EtherealN]

Thing is, I fly that carefree even with the AP channels on (and FD off). I throw my helicopter about violently, I slow down, and I don't get a feeling of fighting the AP. If I'm in auto-hover and need to scoot I just shut off auto-hover and move my rotary behind out of there. If I'm in forward flight and need to break or evade a new thread ahead of me I just turn.

 

I just flew a bit around an airbase, first with AP's off and then with AP's on. There's a but of jumpiness because I use the old trimmer method and sometimes I'm not fast enough when I trim, but all these violent maneuvers you feel need special protocol if the AP's are on are just like any other maneuver in my opinion.

 

The only reason I can see to fly with the AP's disengaged or the APon/FDon combo is for training, really. If you get the AP shot out from under you it's good if you still know how to fly the bird. But aside from that I personally don't see any reason to want them off.

OnAndOff.trk

[Distiler]

The trick for not "fight" the AP is to understand it and trim trim trim. Latest patch corrected the behaviour so now, HDG:

 

The Yaw (heading) autopilot channel functionality has also been redesigned. If the yaw rate is under 3 deg/sec. when the trimmer button is released, the autopilot will stabilize the helicopter heading. If the yaw rate is greater than 3 deg/sec., the autopilot will stabilize the yaw rate to maintain the turn.

[My Fing ID]

Thing is, I fly that carefree even with the AP channels on (and FD off). I throw my helicopter about violently, I slow down, and I don't get a feeling of fighting the AP. If I'm in auto-hover and need to scoot I just shut off auto-hover and move my rotary behind out of there. If I'm in forward flight and need to break or evade a new thread ahead of me I just turn.

 

I just flew a bit around an airbase, first with AP's off and then with AP's on. There's a but of jumpiness because I use the old trimmer method and sometimes I'm not fast enough when I trim, but all these violent maneuvers you feel need special protocol if the AP's are on are just like any other maneuver in my opinion.

 

The only reason I can see to fly with the AP's disengaged or the APon/FDon combo is for training, really. If you get the AP shot out from under you it's good if you still know how to fly the bird. But aside from that I personally don't see any reason to want them off.

 

Yeah, I remember the first time my AP was shot out. Can't believe I still made it. Think it was also the first time my hydrolics were shot out so I had to land on the belly (is there a way to pop out gear w/out hydro?)

 

The majority of the times I have disengaged AP was when I'm in was a hover and getting shot at. Usually I don't, but when I have a SAM or guns flying at my, I'm trying to drop and get at range as fast as possible. Still the APs not all bad, I can do some maneuvering with it, but it's not as clean as in FD and has caused more problems than it solves, especially since when I'm maneuvering if there is a problem, it's usually the AP.

 

Anyways just my thoughts, I'm sure after the next 20 hours I'll feel better about it :thumbup:

[EtherealN]

(is there a way to pop out gear w/out hydro?)

 

You have an emergency flipswitch next to the gear lever that will hopefully allow you to deploy gear anyhow.

[AlphaOneSix]

Sadly, I'm nearly convinced that it isn't Kamov that got the Ap wrong, I really think that the game simulates it incorrectly. The only reason that I have not argued my case is that I do not have access to any technical manuals to prove my point.

 

My point being: Every aircraft that I have worked on that has an autopilot, also has some way of knowing the exact position of the controls and knows when and how far they move. When the controls move, the autopilot knows that the pilot is making a change, and not to fight that change, but let it happen. In a way, it's similar to engaging FD mode every time you move any of the controls, and then disengaging it when the controls stop moving.

 

To be fair, and in support of the way the game handles the autopilot, I must also add that I have never felt like I'm fighting anything, and I have never once used the FD mode, although I can see and understand the argument that people are making.

[My Fing ID]

Tried it but it didn't do anything. Well in any case I'm able to land on the belly so I don't feel too bad about it lol.

[Frederf]

I couldn't believe that the holds simply release all of their authority when pilot input was detected... that would be madness. AP is holding 19% authority pitch down and the pilot touches the controls... AP releases back to 0% control channel modification? Hardly, the helicopter would do a backflip!

 

The most sane thing the AP can do when the stick is moved from trim-center is to freeze it's values at whatever it was holding before. I believe this is exactly what the sim and the real Ka-50 does. This gives the smoothest input without fighting the pilot.

 

It's an easy test to make, set up straight and level in the Ka-50 all trimmed nice and then very, very slightly bank with the stick with the hold channel in place. If the AP was ~0% authority before the input then it stands to reason the AP could easily counter your meager input with more AP authority and hold the original bank angle.

 

What happens is that the tiny input is not countered by the AP as the AP freezes its values for control so all of the pilot's input passes through the AP "piggyback" intermediary module to the flight controls. The AP doesn't fight stick input, it doesn't throw up its hands and shut off, it just goes catatonic.

[GGTharos]

The problem isn't the AP - rather there are a couple of other problems:

 

The input system (your cyclic, pedals and collective) is not faithfully simulated - the problem is the actual hardware, not necessarily the sim. One thing I think might have been done better is to disconnect the rudder from trim/forcefeedback in some cases. Also, FFB doesn't seem to be working perfect which again may be a hardware issue.

 

- Most people just don't get the AP, and they also don't realize that YES, you DO trim every couple seconds! Real pilots do. A helicopter is a very dynamic aircraft and it is required to trim often to stay in good control, at least with older helis. Some newer helis may implement dynamic trim.

[Cyb0rg]

Well.. i have no problems with AP. But then.. i also dont think about it :noexpression:

Its almost like a 2nd nature to me. If something wrong, i check if route mode is active, center the ruder, chk AP buttons.. a bit of trim.. and off i go! :smartass:

 

i barely use DM too.

 

Edit :

Tried it but it didn't do anything. Well in any case I'm able to land on the belly so I don't feel too bad about it lol.

 

Yeah, same here. That red switch never did anything useful to me. Always land on the belly :P

Edited December 22, 2009 by Cyb0rg

[Jones11C]

Based on your comments, I would say you're experiencing what real helicopter pilots experience in modern tactical aircraft. It's an augmentation system built into helicopters to make them actually overcome the inherent unstable aerodynamics imposed by a rotor system... unfortunately, there is no way around those dynamics. What FMC's (Flight Management Computers) do in the way of assisting the pilot is not necessarily taking those dynamics mentioned from the flight, but allowing the aviator who knowing these dynamics exist, to apply less energy in compensating for these problems. The disadvantage you have unfortunately is that you are not able to experience the physiological manifestations of the machine and how it reacts to the atmosphere... ie. seat of the pants. You just need more time with exposure to the system. Initial aviators, including myself when I was one, is to have tired legs, arms, and white knuckles trying to hover. Now I can do it with just one finger, and have been able to do so for a while now.

 

The FMC, or FD as Black Shark has it, isn't really fighting you, but the environment. All the navigational components are providing imputs from the external enviromnet to the FMC, while your imputs are also being fed to the same computer. The aircraft discerns your imputs from the outside world, telling the helicopter if it is you making the helicopter move, or the outside worl, ie. in the form of a crosswind for example. To help the pilot relax, the aircraft attempts to compensate for these effects from the atmosphere, ultimately relieving the pilot from work load. It just takes practice. Again, I have to emphasize that you aren't able to "feel" the aircraft, so appropriately positioning the flight controls is being based off a two-dimensional picture you are viewing on your monitor. This will effect you tremendously in controlling or over controlling the airframe. It's just going to take practice dude. No way around it. However, fly the aircraft in a way that works for you. You aren't under any operational manual limitations or oversight agencie's goggles to determine whether you are operating safely or as desired!

 

This simulator is very realistic.... coming from an actual helicopter pilot.

[ARM505]

Sadly, I'm nearly convinced that it isn't Kamov that got the Ap wrong, I really think that the game simulates it incorrectly. The only reason that I have not argued my case is that I do not have access to any technical manuals to prove my point.

 

(Snip)....................

 

I agree completely. Again, like you I don't have anything to back it up though unfortunately. It's just an intuitive guess, but stab augmentation systems are generally not designed to fight pilot input. Like you, I also don't find it utterly unflyable, but comparing FD mode (stab aug, but not fighting back) to normal modes (fighting back), the difference is clear. Also, watching those cockpit videos of the real deal makes it seem even more obvious to me. Oh well. Without proof, it's just a hunch.

[Frederf]

The AP doesn't fight back.

[winz]

got to ask, just to be sure:

Do you hold your trim button while making any moves with the cyclic? Or do you only press trim when you are at the desired heading/bank/yaw

[AlphaOneSix]

I couldn't believe that the holds simply release all of their authority when pilot input was detected... that would be madness. AP is holding 19% authority pitch down and the pilot touches the controls... AP releases back to 0% control channel modification? Hardly, the helicopter would do a backflip!

 

If this was directed at me, then I did not explain my point clearly enough, as that is not what I meant at all. If I thought there was actual interest, I'd go into great detail explaining my position. However, as already mentioned, I don't have access to the specifics of the Ka-50, so any point I make would be moot.

[Panzertard]

My Fing ID - you're not alone "fighting the AP".

Here's a quick summary from one of the "other-nn'th" threads about it ;)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=789311&postcount=10

 

I'm not sure if you have tried this method;

- Enable all 3 dampeners channels, fly with them on. (Dont use Flight Director mode just yet - wait until you have learned the stanadard mode).

- Before starting a new manouver, before you change Attitude - *hold the Trim button*

- Change attitude (speed, altitude, heading etc).

- Release trim.

 

With this method you never have to fight it.

[PoleCat]

My Fing ID - you're not alone "fighting the AP".

Here's a quick summary from one of the "other-nn'th" threads about it ;)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=789311&postcount=10

 

 

 

With this method you never have to fight it.

 

Agreed. I find this by far the easiest way to trim. Not at all sure if it is "correct" or not. But while manuvering I hold the trim button in and when I get to the desired attitude I release it.

 

Out

[Madman777]

Agreed. I find this by far the easiest way to trim. Not at all sure if it is "correct" or not. But while manuvering I hold the trim button in and when I get to the desired attitude I release it.

 

Out

 

I set my trim button to pinky switch on x52. I'm so used to holding the trim down now I find myself holding it down throughout an entire mission lol

[My Fing ID]

got to ask, just to be sure:

Do you hold your trim button while making any moves with the cyclic? Or do you only press trim when you are at the desired heading/bank/yaw

 

I usually trim several times to turn. So its move, trim, repeat until I'm at the right bank then trim back out. I pretty much trim after every move I make. I can fly with the AP, my main point behind this thread is that I think the FD should have been the default rather than full AP/trim. This is because its easier to manuever and transition with FD, where the standard mode is good for long flights and as pointed out earlier checking instruments. I just think Kamov got it backwards.

[winz]

You should hold the trim button while making any moves. Holding it will diseangage the AP (you will not have to fight him while making the turn)

[GGTharos]

And you are still wrong. Kamov is not the only company who produces helicopters with autopilots. Using the AP is pretty much standard procedure on choppers that have them AFAIK, so I guess the world of helicopter pilots and manufacturers disagrees with you. If you're yanking and banking the chopper, you're not doing it right.

 

I usually trim several times to turn. So its move, trim, repeat until I'm at the right bank then trim back out. I pretty much trim after every move I make. I can fly with the AP, my main point behind this thread is that I think the FD should have been the default rather than full AP/trim. This is because its easier to manuever and transition with FD, where the standard mode is good for long flights and as pointed out earlier checking instruments. I just think Kamov got it backwards.