Well I thought I was a into flight sims but.....

[27]

I found out I was definatly wrong.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going anywhere and putting DCS:BS down, I just want to relate my frustrations/wants out of what, from what I can tell, is a VERY giving community.

 

First some background though. I started "simming" in 1988 when I got my first computer with Flight Sim 3.0 and then the Jetfighter series shortly there after. It was love at first sight and I LOVED these games. I had the basics down pat and could get to where I wanted to...generally.... by using the zoomed out map (hey I was like 10 years old, give me a break).

 

Since then I had played some of the Janes series, LHX, Gunship 2000, etc. Loved every one of them also, but they were NOTHING like what was to come.

 

Falcon (forget what version came out) and my system couldn't run it. I couldn't afford at the time to update it so I took a break.... a break that was to be for a while.

 

You see I hit high school and found out about the opposite sex. A man must have priorities and I set them straight. I finished high school, went on an extensive college carreer and had A LOT of fun. (change my major 7 times, twice being CS lol!)

 

Once I started in teh workforce I quickly got back into gaming, albeit it was anything I could get my hands on, MMO, RPG, FPS, Racing, Flight, I didnt care. If it was there I was playing it. Flight sim 2004 came out at some point (probably 2004 ;) ) and I picked it up.

 

It was yet another demanding flight sim on my system, so I put it down for a bit until I could afford to have a system to play it.

 

Oh how Lady Fate can be kind some times.

 

I ended up as a Gaming Product Manager for a major OEM. I was able to test out all sorts of new hardware and games at a whim. I can't tell you how many joysticks, throttles, pedals etc were thrown our way to test. Anyhow life was good and I played around with FS 2004, and then FSX when it game out. But I never had any issues. I twas always business as ususal, didn't really think there was more to just getting in it and flying around.

 

So fast forward to today:

 

Anyhow, I am now here with a loving woman and three kiddos. I have a pretty nice gaming rig, and VERY limited spare time...yet I am hooked on gaming. I knew DCS:BS was coming and I had always loved helo combat sims so I decided to pick it up. I must say that off the bat I was bit disappointed. I couldn't get off the ground, nor really go and blow stuff up. Assigning buttons was a pain in the rear (no way to just click the button on the joystick to assign) and the learning curve on this game was WAYYYY high, even for the "easy mode"

 

So due to the lack of time I put it down and played it here and there trying to figure the game out, but it wasn't until this past Christmas break that I really had any time ot try and figure it out.

 

Now I spent a lot of time trying to get off the ground and figuring out how to play the game. I was able to get through a few missions (took me forever to figure out the night vision button, and the first couple night-vision missions i flew blind, only by the instruments lol!)...but I never played multiplayer.

 

So now you know why I dont see myself as a good simmer, I jsut dont know this enough!

 

And this is where some of you come in...

 

I KNOW there is a lot more to this game and much more to learn as to how to really fly this chopper than I know now. I generally learn more by people telling me what to do WHILE I am doing that, so I am hoping that there is some squad out there that MIGHT be willing to show me the ropes while on TS or Vent.... Like I said before I don't have a lot of spare time, so I would rather use it playing than reading manuals.

 

Please help!

 

-[27]

[StrongHarm]

Well 27, you established your credibility (at length) in being able to criticize a sim, but I think you may have taken one break too many and forgotten something about their nature. Remember when you got the first complex sim where you had to read a manual that was a foot thick? Remember how great it was to study (and understand!) the ground breaking technology behind the aircraft? Remember the accomplishment you felt from mastering such a complex war machine? I think the essence of someone who really loves sims is that they want to learn. They are at war with their own limitations, they are thirsting to know why that targeting system works like it does so they can more effectively master its use. Read the manual. Watch the producer's notes videos. Oh, you'll still have questions, but you'll be reminded why you giggle when someone says they play world of warcraft because they like a challenge.

[104th_Crunch]

Squads can help tremendously, but you would be expected to at the very least to have read the manual. Most squads are there to further your training and not to be a replacement for reading. I am not saying that is what you are after exclusively, but it is something to keep in mind.

 

I myself have not delved into the KA-50 extensively, but I have a handle on most of the basics. I got these from the manual, the helpful posts here at these forums, the Producer Videos, the in game training, the Tutorial: How to take off and blow up stuff, and yes asking my squadmates after being sure to at least trying to figure out the basics. Trimming is an important concept and you'll find many topics on that here in the forums, like this one by Acedy.

 

I hope you continue to enjoy simming!

Edited January 19, 2010 by Crunch

[EvilBivol-1]

You see I hit high school and found out about the opposite sex. A man must have priorities and I set them straight. I finished high school, went on an extensive college carreer and had A LOT of fun.

Obviously, you've made some poor life choices. No wonder you suck at Black Shark.

 

Have you tried the Producer's Notes?

http://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt?blend=2&ob=1#p/u/17/k_1rXqKJ6fg

[GGTharos]

So ... you haven't watched the instructor tracks or videos?

 

Read at least the key reference when you needed to find a button?

 

Because frankly, I had the startup down after following the video twice, and the flying part - well, that part was relatively easy. Other people can teach you the finer points of it all, but I think you can figure out how to turn the machine on on your own, seriously, and we're talking about a thirty minute effort at most here. ;)

 

I think maybe you just went about it the wrong way like ... maybe trying to start by pushing random buttons?

[EinsteinEP]

Welcome [back] to the community, 27!

 

I second Agent StrongHarm's recommendation: don't leave out the books!

 

Enthusiasm to want want to get in and fly is a good thing - but there's a lot of background knowledge you'll need to be able to fly and fight the Black Shark well. Stick-time alone will not get you there. The "just hop in and fly" method seems to give pilots bad habits and can result a negative view of the Ka-50 and her complicated systems (just search this forum for "autopilot" and "trim" for great examples of hatin'!).

 

While I certainly do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm, I can't recommend enough that you take time to read through manuals, forums, and websites and really try to understand the complex workings of systems like the autopilot, the Trimmer, the Shkval, the PVI-800, etc. Your DCS experience will be greatly improved with in-depth knowledge.

 

If you're looking for a relatively easy "just hop in the cockpit and go fly with my buddies" type game, you will probably not enjoy Black Shark (perhaps in Game mode?).

[Speed_2]

Well, in my squad, we have people who enjoy training other folks, and we don't really expect too much reading... I find the manual very hard to digest at times, for two reasons: 1)It seems to be lacking on tactics and employment and generally, how to do things. 2) The pictures are still for a Russian cockpit! This makes things very slow and confusing when trying to learn switches, buttons, etc.

 

That said, if you wanted to train with us, you'd have to join us. I don't think any squad out there will train you if you're not going to stick around and fly with them.

Edited January 19, 2010 by Speed_2

[StrongHarm]

Well, in my squad, we have people who enjoy training other folks, and we don't really expect too much reading... I find the manual very hard to digest at times, for two reasons: 1)It seems to be lacking on tactics and employment and generally, how to do things. 2) The pictures are still for a Russian cockpit! This makes things very slow and confusing when trying to learn switches, buttons, etc. That said, if you wanted to train with us, you'd have to join us. We're pretty informal right now because we are sorta making a transition from Falcon 4 AF to DCS.

 

You train people for startup and basic flight? Wow.. where were you after I installed?! Good luck on your recruiting and welcome to DCS.

[Speed_2]

Welcome [back] to the community, 27!

 

I second Agent StrongHarm's recommendation: don't leave out the books!

 

Enthusiasm to want want to get in and fly is a good thing - but there's a lot of background knowledge you'll need to be able to fly and fight the Black Shark well. Stick-time alone will not get you there. The "just hop in and fly" method seems to give pilots bad habits and can result a negative view of the Ka-50 and her complicated systems (just search this forum for "autopilot" and "trim" for great examples of hatin'!).

 

While I certainly do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm, I can't recommend enough that you take time to read through manuals, forums, and websites and really try to understand the complex workings of systems like the autopilot, the Trimmer, the Shkval, the PVI-800, etc. Your DCS experience will be greatly improved with in-depth knowledge.

 

If you're looking for a relatively easy "just hop in the cockpit and go fly with my buddies" type game, you will probably not enjoy Black Shark (perhaps in Game mode?).

 

I donno, I disagree. I find DCS Black Shark to be a fairly simple game, once you LEARN some things. I guess anything is simple once you understand and know it- well, ALMOST anything. So yea, once you have a certain knowledge base in DCS Black Shark, it DOES become a "just hop in the cockpit and go fly with my buddies" type game. Alot of the advanced knowledge on subjects such as Abris and ADF is not needed 99.99% of the time.

[deadsmell]

This is one thing I dont see enough of.

 

Dont just read the manual, and dont just watch the training videos.

 

TAKE NOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cant stress that enough.

 

It works for me anyway. I even draw up diagrams and stuff if I need to.

 

I think thats seriously the best advice for you right now.

 

TAKE NOTES!!!! DO IT!!!!

[StrongHarm]

I donno, I disagree. I find DCS Black Shark to be a fairly simple game, once you LEARN some things. I guess anything is simple once you understand and know it- well, ALMOST anything. So yea, once you have a certain knowledge base in DCS Black Shark, it DOES become a "just hop in the cockpit and go fly with my buddies" type game. Alot of the advanced knowledge on subjects such as Abris and ADF is not needed 99.99% of the time.

 

I agree to a point Speed2, but I also agree with Deadsmell in that the more you know (and take notes to retain) the better. The great thing about DCS is that you get out of it what you put in. If you want to learn to start the bird, take off and shoot the airfield up, say 'that was cool' and move on to your next software purchase, that's your thing. If you want to learn how to plot a relative point on the ABRIS then translate the coords into the PVI for a new waypoint you'll get a return from your investment of time.. I guarantee it.

 

Although I expect to enjoy completely immersing myself in understanding the full capabilities of the Ka50 in the months or years to come, in contrast I probably won't take it as far as this guy:

 

 

Edit: is he barefoot in a flightsuit?

Edited January 19, 2010 by StrongHarm

[CAT_101st]

stop buy our site and check us out. I like doing training for guys that like to fly. We don't require you to be a member of the groop for training. only for offical mission that we fly. you never know you may like the idea of being a Mercenary pilot ;) I work a night shift so I amon line betwean 10:00 AM and 1:00 PM PST -0800 GMT I hope you find what you are looking for.

[Frazer]

[27], I think the "Spare Time Pilots" is the squad you are looking for. Very friendly guys and very willing to teach anyone, anything, from newbies till expert. I learned a lot from them!

 

Teamspeak 3

IP: 193.192.58.7

Port: 5430

Password: stpTS3

 

Mostly flying between 16:00 GMT till 01:00 GMT

[L4key]

Yeah - what DS said, take notes. I watched the training missions and jotted a few reminders down and after a few runs of my own I was ok at the basics of target aquisition and weapon delivery.

 

I have no idea why the ABRIS is there still other than to show me my route (I can change waypoint) but thats about it. Same with the PVI800, not much of a clue there either!

 

That said I still have flown and completed 3 campaigns (quite) easily, with a low spec rig as well I might add.

 

Now I can fly and fight and have got slightly bored of this I'm going back to learn manual start up and ABRIS.

 

You don't have to know as much as you think at the start to get a lot out of this sim.

 

Plus - ask on the forum - you'll get few unhelpful 'rtfm' snipes but if you exhausted a search or the sticky's first for your problem you'll get an answer.

[talisman]

Hey thats CrC's pit :) He is my hero!

[norm]

on thing that i use (i am far form being a master) is taking control before the instructor starts talking, and going through the steps as he is talking.

[104th_Crunch]

Hey thats CrC's pit :) He is my hero!

 

He is truly HARDCORE!

[27]

Ok, Judging from the tone of the first few replies I think I came off the wrong way. Let me explain.

 

I love Black Shark... I am not trying to have a negative view of it. You can't argue that the learning curve for it is extremely steep.

 

I have read enough on the web/looked at enough videos to get the ability to get off the ground, and blow stuff up...hence why I was able to complete some of the missions = )

 

What I was trying to convey that there is SO much that I don't understand that I think it would enrich the game, but would be much easier, more fun, and a much better use of my limited gaming time, to have some instruction than to have to completely read the manual. I don't do well with ebooks on the PC, and my son stepped on my Sony reader cracking the screen, so that doesnt help me either lol.

 

My biggest concern is getting to know enough to be able to jump into a multiplayer scenario and actually be able to interact within expectations of other players to make it fun for all. I can't tell you how many times in BF2 that I would get irritated at somebody that jumped in teh chopper with me without knowing what to do...basically using full fledged combat to be their teaching tool. I'd rather know what I need PRIOR to getting into that situation. I don't want to be "that guy" that came in and ruined the game.

 

It wasn't even on my mind that I might ruffle a few feathers with the post, so please....sit back, relax and crack open a frosty barley pop and enjoy the time you can game. Thats what I want to do, its just faster with some help = ).

 

Frazer, CAT_101st I'll be checking out your squads to get some help, thanks!

 

to everybody else that posted links, I also thank you, I do check out the videos etc, but I learn better with a little instruction rather than reading(although I do check the manuals etc here and there)

[EtherealN]

On the note of being able to read manuals on the screen, you could always purchase the extended manual in hardcopy format. I got it as an x-mas gift and it is very handy to have sitting next to the keyboard when out flying on a practice run.

 

But on tutoring, generally speaking it should be doable to find someone that will accompany you to a server. Also do check out the rookie thing that's going on in another thread - that's a bunch of people that meet up once a week to learn the nuances of the Shark alongside each other. Nice people and I think you'll find them good company. :)

[Zembla]

I donno, I disagree. I find DCS Black Shark to be a fairly simple game, once you LEARN some things. I guess anything is simple once you understand and know it- well, ALMOST anything. So yea, once you have a certain knowledge base in DCS Black Shark, it DOES become a "just hop in the cockpit and go fly with my buddies" type game. Alot of the advanced knowledge on subjects such as Abris and ADF is not needed 99.99% of the time.

 

²

 

It's a simulator. I don't pay by the hour or by the flight. Plenty of stuff out there can be learned on the go by experience, and usually a lot more thoroughly. The books only get you into the cockpit, after that, you're on your own to figure out how to handle the whirly bird.

 

Some things like figuring out the purpose of each step in the startup procedure go a long way to get you airborne, but in the end, learning as you go is a good way to keep the fun in the game.

 

-Z

[gumball360]

This is one thing I dont see enough of.

 

Dont just read the manual, and dont just watch the training videos.

 

TAKE NOTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cant stress that enough.

 

It works for me anyway. I even draw up diagrams and stuff if I need to.

 

I think thats seriously the best advice for you right now.

 

TAKE NOTES!!!! DO IT!!!!

 

Agreed. I learned how to fly simply by watching the training videos, along with plenty of notes (mainly checklists of complex sequences).

 

Everyone should be lucky that the game actually came with any sort of instructions at all. A lot of older flight sims I've played have no sort of tutorials at all.

[EtherealN]

Another important thing is to take things one at a time.

 

Before you even think about killing stuff, make sure that you have basic flight down. And that includes things like recovering from Vortex Ring State. Spend some time thinking about emergency maneuvers you might have to take, and pracrice them. Then make yourself familiar with what parts of the flight envelope place you at risk of rotor disc intersection - this is where a simulator is handy because you don't have to play with your life to do this. Become familiar with how to coordinate manuvers (mainly to the right) with cyclic and collective to avoid that.

 

Once you feel like a borderline aerobatics pilot, start looking at weapons employment. Again - one thing at a time. Start with Vikhrs, find out their limitations. Then cannon. The rockets. Run some tests with weapons control at manual to see where you can override the normal limitations. Repeat for airborne targets (but don't mind the rockets here...).

 

This done, go look at navigation. Of course, you should ordinarily have been here first, but this is an entertainment product an killing stuff is part of what makes it fun. Play with the ABRIS, see what you need to figure out to make yourself effective. Then look at the PVI-800 and find out how it links to your other systems.

 

After that, datalink. This is extra important for online, since it''ll allow you to mark threats on other people's ABRIS screens.

 

Basically, doing things one step at a time is the key to understanding a complex system like the Shark, and don't stop on a system when you've "understood" it. Make sure to repeat it - you want it to sit in your spine before you leave it - that way you won't have to think about it at all when you have to use it.

[jctrnacty]

I was learning BS on the fly, i can only say I finished Falcon4 SP and openfalcon campaigns on ace dificulty so i am a little bit experienced simmer.

 

It took me 1 week of instant flying BS to rule this sim.

 

First of all i recommend: good joystick - minimum saitek x52

 

second: make your own joystick setup that suits you best - don´t use different setups

 

third: watch all training videos , make a notes

 

fourth: begin with campaign - never mind you will do one mission 5 times or 10 times , first campaign is very well balanced to learn BS.

 

fifth: setup BS on highest difficulty - no need to cheat, after this you will be the true ace

 

sixth: don´t give up

 

For me personally the most important thing is number one - good joystick, without this i think i couldn´t

rule the BS. It´s possible without track IR but without x52 , its impossible.

 

P.S: if you need help , ask on forums , a lot of people helped me to solve my problems. I never read the manual through. Only a few pages that i needed to realize some things like PV-800 or how is it called.

Edited January 20, 2010 by jctrnacty

[CptKanito]

The 'Producers Notes' did it for me, download the vids and just have them in the background. Pause them in steps so i can watch the video and operate the BS at the same time, by Tab-ing in and out to play a bit more of the vid each time.

[blahdy]

I am a new simmer as well, I bought DCS Black Shark a while ago, but found the learning curve to be quite high.

 

I love the absolute realism on this simulator/game, and I think that developers should keep up the work they are doing to simulate realism to the highest level, rather than sacrificing challenge and realism by catering to the lowest common denominator to newbies like myself.

 

However, I think one element that DCS could use lot of improvement on in helping the learning curve for newbies is a more thorough training facility in the game. The current training setup in DCS is very crude and boring -- the instructor just talks and you are not given a chance to operate and try out the vehicle yourself (i.e. instructor doesnt tell you 'try this now'). And often times it takes forever for the instructor to say the next phrase, while you're just sitting stand still inside the cockpit wondering when the instructor is going to move forward. It's like sitting in a boring class with a professor that just says random things :P

 

For me, I'm learning as I go. Fortunately, DCS has very good tools (such as permit crash receiver, and the ability to mix arcade+real control keys for both avionics and flight regimes) for hands-on trial-by-flying/trial-by-fire learners like me. But I think improvement to training missions would be a nice addition in the future..