/frustrated

[sweinhart3]

Ive learned my lesson to not get too close to enemies or you pay the consequences. Lately Ive been having problems dying not from enemies but from extreme manuevers. I go from 150knots to 0 and shove my collective to nothing. Hard to do cause I easily enter a vortex ring. Or a sam launches and I dump collective and make a hard bank/turn and crash in the water. Or I go home to rearm and screw up the landing. Any instructions somewhere on how to do extreme manueveres without killing yourself?

[takamba]

Don`t stress yourself to much.

 

Learning by doing is the best way I think.

 

If you move your cyclic hard it`s recommanded to lower the collective, otherwise the rotors touch each other.

 

Try to get friendly with the chopper by doing some races through the bunkers on an airport, or a fast low ride through a valley or a city.

 

If I crash for some reason and I don`t know why, I allways look at the track to see what I can do better the next time.

[Martillo1]

I bet your problem is with the collective. Keep in mind that your engines are turbines, which bear a lag in the power output.

[Eddie]

Practice, practice and more practice.

 

As said above, do some low level flights through the valleys to practice handling. When I was learning basic flight I just created a simple mission in the editor with just one Ka-50 and waypoints to various areas of the map and just started it up and flew. On several occasions I flew from one side of the map to the other stopping for fuel at planned points along the way.

 

IMHO there is no trick to learning to fly and fight the Hokum, apart from lots and lots of practice. I still start up that same simple mission now and practice landings and low level flight etc just to keep my self current.

[Martillo1]

Sometimes I take off and follow the roads to kill the civilian traffic, as practice of course :D

[isoul]

Ive learned my lesson to not get too close to enemies or you pay the consequences. Lately Ive been having problems dying not from enemies but from extreme manuevers. (1)I go from 150knots to 0 and shove my collective to nothing. Hard to do cause I easily enter a vortex ring. Or a sam launches and (2)I dump collective and make a hard bank/turn and crash in the water. Or I go home to rearm and (3)screw up the landing. Any instructions somewhere on how to do extreme manueveres without killing yourself?

Point (1) :

This will, 99% of the time, lead your helicopter in vortex ring state. I couldn't figure out why you had to set collective to 0% but its definately wrong. My suggestion is to pitch up a bit to lose speed(this will normally lead you in gaining altitude), at the same time decrease collective slowly to compensate the altitude gain. While speed is decreasing you have to move up the collective to gain some lift. Alternatively you can engage ALT HOLD and set an altitude(using the collective break) to set a desired altitude. Slighty pitch up to loose speed and while you are >50km/h you can engage Auto Hover and let the cyclic(slowly) to center. The Auto Hover will take over to set you in a (usualy-almost-complete) stop/hover. Keep in mind that Auto Hover function, in RL, isn't the one responsible to make you hover. You have to achieve the complete hover and once done the Auto Hover will keep that state.

 

Point (2) :

I think Martillo1 gave you the answer. Just don't be so hasty! Aggressive input lead in a crash or weird flying...

 

Point(3) :

Practise, practise, practice..! Keep in mind, like above, you have to contol the helo smoothly. In order to land you need to prepare from a few kilometers away. Reduce speed and altitude graduately, once close to a FARP be extremely gentle with your input and take some time to hover over the heli-pad. Decrease collective slowly to set your vertical velocity close to -2. DON'T DROP YOUR HELO LIKE A SHIP'S ANCHOR! After some practise I can hardly fail to land.

[GGTharos]

Any instructions somewhere on how to do extreme manueveres without killing yourself?

 

Yes. Quite bluntly, stop doing 'extreme maneuvers'. Helicopters aren't built to do such things in general, even if some are capable of it now and then. If you aren't able to smoothly fly yourself out of a situation then you:

 

a) Gotten too close to the enemy and you'll die anyway

 

or

 

b) you just don't know how to fly in a calm and smooth manner ;)

[element1108]

You're not going to dodge a Sam in a helo either so set your flares to multiple bursts when you see a launch dump them and smoothly change direction.

 

You're also not going to go from 150 to zero at the drop of a hat. If you enter a hot zone 90 turn while dumping flares, change of altitude will also help. Most important keep movements on the stick gentle and smooth. Panic might set in, but you're more of a danger to yourself than the inbound missile is ;).

 

Best advice is make sure an area is clear before you swoop in at 150 km/h. Patience is key, your helicopter and virtual pilot depends on it :).

 

Best of luck next time mate!

[Schnarre Aggro]

... Any instructions somewhere on how to do extreme manueveres without killing yourself?

 

allways be aware that you try to move a 9tons Mass "very quick"

 

try to avoid "hasty" maneuvers , you CAN do heavy steering input BUT not "instantly"

 

This is in my opinion a very big hint in controlling the shark.

 

Also good to know is the point: you need a lot more collective while hovering than while forward flying- so- when slowing down to 0kmh u need to constantly increase Bladeangle/collective, and pay attention to ur VVI and make sure that u do not descent faster than 3-5 m/s (depends on the payload) ... that should be enough that you dont get into a vortex .

 

hope that helps

..infact it helped me to avoid 95% of all vortexes

 

Schnarre

*a Sharkanatik Amateur*

Edited January 27, 2010 by Schnarre [Aggro]
tuu menni Mysdacces ;-)

[viper169th]

Hi Sweinhart3,

You can dump the collective just watch for a little H to appear if it does give the engines more power if not you'll be in the vortex ring you'll only have a couple seconds to get the power back up, You'll be good at it after a few times remember "H" = bad LOL

Sincerely,

Viper169th

[EinsteinEP]

Hi Sweinhart3,

You can dump the collective just watch for a little H to appear if it does give the engines more power if not you'll be in the vortex ring you'll only have a couple seconds to get the power back up, You'll be good at it after a few times remember "H" = bad LOL

Sincerely,

Viper169th

Bad advice! A pilot can enter VRS long before the low altitude warning (the "H" you refer to) is activated. And, once in a VRS, increasing engine power will excacerbate the problem, not help. A decent rate of more than 5 m/s and an airspeed of less than 50 km/h is the range to avoid. The expanded Black Shark manual, available on the DCS website for free download as a pdf, has a VRS Safety Zone diagram at Figure 13-2 on page 13-6.

[Frazer]

1 meter is enough no? :music_whistling: :D:D:D

 

Many people jump in to combat right away, I did it the other way around. The first year I only flew aerobatics with the shark and knowing the exact limits helps me a lot in combat!

 

You might learn from studying

, as you can see the flight from multiple aspects.

 

[edit]This was flown with BS unpatched, will fly it again to provide a (working) track.[edit]

Edited January 27, 2010 by Frazer

[Schnarre Aggro]

... And, once in a VRS, increasing engine power will excacerbate the problem, not help...

 

well .. thats not fully true.

 

Remind that this chopper is built for carrying a lot of fuel an weapons.

so - if u load no weapons even no gunammo(about450kg) and only 25%fuel

you have 90%chance of "pulling" the Shark out of the vortex with raw and brute force(using the collective and extraengine power)... dunno if its like that in reality , but i experience a lot of situaions like that "in the game"

 

schnarre

[Frazer]

To continue on my 1 meter statement :D The ground effect helps a lot too :megalol:

[Schnarre Aggro]

sure the ground effekt helps BUT imagine to be in a vortex with descen of slow7m/s from 50m ALt.

....you do not stay long enought in the alttitude in wich the groundeffect appears that u can take benefit out of it :smartass:

 

a "pretty sure"

schnarre

:pilotfly:

[viper169th]

Hi EinsteinEP,

what i was talking about was a rule of thumb you see the "H" you little time to respond thats with forward airspeed already sitting still and dropping the collective is sucide at best btw forgot to say drop the nose of the helo to pick up more airspeed. I personally have not had a vortex problem since then but everyone has there own ways to avoid it I did forget the exact rate of decent for BS been out for a couple months best thing to do is practice :)

 

Sincerely,

Viper169th

Edited January 27, 2010 by viper169th

[Bushmanni]

Dumping altitude safely without dive is impossible and will always lead to VRS. Reducing collective to 0% will also reduce the amount of cyclic control and when done from hover might lead to uncontrolled violent maneuver and blade strike.

 

If I need to dump altitude quickly, I'll dive. I'll start the dive with 10-25% collective and possibly get into VRS if in real hurry but I will point the nose down also as soon as possible to regain control. If I'm behind a hill or building, I would also turn 90-180 degrees while diving so as to not crash into my cover. This maneuver has almost always saved me from radar SAMs but often lead me into other problems like crashing into said cover, getting into pilot induced oscillation and crash, or flying out of cover and getting shot to pieces by other enemy units.

 

Basically, it's better to not need to get down quickly. When popping up, do it slowly and you will have time to see the SAM site/launch before you are well above the ridge line. Then you can get into cover with much less aggressive maneuver in equal time and be safe from killing yourself.

 

If I need to stop ASAP, I will do a high-G break turn. I start the turn with about 25% collective to prevent blade strike but still get good control and increase collective as speed is reduced. When speed is under 50km/h I have sometimes gotten into VRS so I will fly more gently the final part of "braking". Most likely you will get into "horizontal VRS" while pulling G and if you keep pulling up to 0km/h the VRS will not go away. When you stop turning hard while still having some speed and level your chopper, you also get out of VRS. After leveling don't bank or pitch more than 30 degrees while slowing down to stay safe as stated in the manual.

 

What comes to landing, practice makes perfect. It shouldn't be an extreme maneuver when you do it right. Stop to hover near landing site before landing and trim the chopper for hover. Then don't touch the trim and land the craft. This will make it lot more stable in the last few crucial meters and keep you from crashing if you screw up the trimming for some reason while hovering at low altitude. When practicing landing, try to land as precisely (as close to the center of pad) as possible. This will develop your controlling ability much faster than just trying to hit the pad. And it will force you to learn to use very small control inputs which is crucial for stable and smooth flight.

 

It might also be helpful to keep 10-20km/h forward speed while coming to a landing. Even just little speed makes shark a lot more stable and easier to control. Slow down gradually to a stop just as the wheels touch the ground.

[liotczik]

if u load no weapons even no gunammo(about450kg) and only 25%fuel

you have 90%chance of "pulling" the Shark out of the vortex with raw and brute force

 

You can do it also with fully loaded helo, but only at the very first signs of VRS developing, while rotor is in a state of like half-VRS. Only then you may be able to arrest vertical speed to the point, where remaining rotor thrust is sufficient to blow the vortex down and regain full lift. And while you have less than a second to react in such scenario, it is better to avoid it, than rely on reflex.

 

sure the ground effekt helps BUT imagine to be in a vortex with descen of slow7m/s from 50m ALt.

....you do not stay long enought in the alttitude in wich the groundeffect appears that u can take benefit out of it

 

50m AGL is enough to recover, if you're quick on controls and immediately start to dive with like 20-30% of collective. That height is enough to accelerate past 50km/h and flatten flight path to avoid deadly crash. The ground effect is indeed really helpful in such scenario - in worst case you'll wreck the helo, but live to tell about it.

 

Most likely you will get into "horizontal VRS" while pulling G

 

Not pulling G's, but forcing fast airflow through rotor disc, in an opposite direction to downwash. Most VRS cases will develop at less than 1G load - think what do you feel when starting the elevator down. I've also experienced "horizontal VRS" while hard dynamic braking, which led me to believe, that VRS is modelled in Black Shark in a more complex way, than simple [iF IAS<50 AND VS>5 THEN VRS]

[Bushmanni]

I once slowly hover-flew inside a hangar, and when I got inside lift increased dramatically and I almost hit the ceiling. I don't know if it's realistic or not but this is another thing that made me think BS does model the airflow in a more complex manner. I wonder if BS also models vortexes and airflows generated by other aircraft?

[GGTharos]

No, it does not. There's no atmosphere simulation as such. Yet.

[StrongHarm]

I believe rotor wash is coded. I've told my wingmen to deploy from a hover and had them pass too close and send me spinning.

[sweinhart3]

When I reach an area that I want to stand off with enemy, Im usually coming in at 200knots and want to quickly come to a slow forward airspeed then stop. I dump the collective to 0 to avoid gaining a lot of altitude and pull up to about 25-30 degrees. As I slow down slowly increase the collective to add braking affect and avoid losing altitude and a low power situation. At all times Im watching my forward airspeed and vertical airspeed. Ive done it successfully many times, but the problem is Ive been unsuccessful just as many times. Often times the helo will very suddenly and without warning enter the vrs state with a very rapid vertical decent long before my forward airspeed is near 0 which means I added too little collective too late. I can get out of the vrs state but only if I have altitude I can lose. This extreme manuever obviously requires the right touch. As I said Ive done it successfully many times. The problem with landing 95% of the time is pretty much the same reason. Im approaching the airfield with a fair amount of altitude and speed which i try to bleed off too quickly. Ive got about 60hours in the shark (admittedly much of it is transit time) but generally I have little problem with basic flight, transitioning, landing etc. But haste generally ends in waiste and when the target area is 30 minutes of flight time, its hard to not be hasty and resort to more extreme maneuvers.

Edited January 28, 2010 by sweinhart3

[GGTharos]

Again, you are performing a maneuver in a way that you shouldn't.

 

This should be the first hint you're doing such a thing:

the problem is Ive been unsuccessful just as many times

 

If you can't do it successfuly 99.99% of the time, you're doing something wrong. Your skill may or may not be it, but donuts to dollars it's just a maneuver you shouldn't be doing. NOE flight is done at no more than 70kt (about 120kph), and super-low flight is done at 30 (50-60kph)... in the real world. Plan your battle position approach from farther out and quit rushing it ;)

[tusler]

Take a Real Flight

 

The one thing a sim cannot do is replicate reality correctly...even though the BS team has come closer than anyone before them.

Take a flight at your local airport in a small helicopter, the training kind, they will usally give you a introductory flight cheap.

What you want to watch is how far he has to move a control stick and how much response is achieved and how much lag there is between the input and the airframe response. Things will make much more sense once you do this:thumbup:

I have flown an H53E while in the Navy and I can tell you I was shocked at what 1/4" of cyclic movement translated into with a 35000LB airframe.

If in a real helo you were to take the stick and quickly, like slam it to the control stop, you defiantlyhave broken something and you probably just committed Helocide:cry:

Yanking and banking is for the A10 or the SU27:joystick:

[Bushmanni]

It's better to reduce the initial speed quickly with a break turn and then use flare maneuver to slowly come to a stop than to flare all the way. With flaring you can't reduce high speeds quickly because you would gain altitude. When going slow you risk VRS if flaring too hard. Instead of initially slowing gently and then hard, it's better to slow down hard first and then gently.

 

sweinhart3:

By judging your story, I think your problem is impatience, not flying skill. I used to rush the transits and then brake hard at last moment when flying Longbow 2 but that game didn't model VRS. Imagine how boring it would be to do all the transit flying again if you crash when landing. Maybe that will help you to do it properly, it works for me. But the quick stop maneuver is still nice to master.