FC 2.0?? su27 vs f15???

[Boberro]

Those who fly realistically in LO will survive without any problem in Lo 2. That's simple :D

[foxwxl]

Yeah, hope the FC2 give us a much more realistic BVR engagement~

 

And also hope we can have the FC2 soon :lol

[Frostie]

When talking about the missile and radar the F-15, realistically, is far superior.

 

Seems to me you are the one who only cares about realism when it suits you.

 

I cant wait to see what 2.0 has to offer. And I hope I live to see a fighter DCS series. But I really, really cant wait to see the tears when both come.

I want a more realistic 120 and ET. I wan't chaff sorted and I also want to see more realistic BVR engagements.

 

The combination of F-15 and 120 is far superior, I don't disagree with you.

Where have I said different?

 

But in RL the AMRAAM relies heavily on this superiority from the F-15 for its mid-course update. If the F-15 doesn't give the information to the missile before it reaches pitbull then the Pk of the shot drops drastically meaning a failed shot.(mid-course update corrects the trajectory for the missile so when it reaches pitbull its at the correct angle meaning the bandit should be the centre of its relatively small seeker cone (compared to the F-15s Radar), in 1.12 this seeker cone is of similair size to the F-15s radar)

 

In 2.0 like 1.12 this will not be an issue where 120's and 77's will fly freely through the air with no aircraft supporting them and then aquire targets outside of what is a realistic angle.

This is implemented to compensate for the failed guidance of the AMRAAM's in LO but while addressing a problem in an F-15 which guides its missile to pitbull, it also crucially gives an outrageous advantage to any F-15 that decides to run away well before pitbull (almost as bad as giving the 120 midcourse updates without a lock). This is the unrealistic behaviour I talk about which ruins BVR.

 

Im glad ED has worked towards fixing this and many other things which have been a bane in 1.12 but sad that it will not be as realistic as it should, nothing can be done about it but talking of tears and showing what the F-15 can really do is seriously mis-guided IMO.

Im hoping things work out for the better in 2.0 and accusations about maddogging don't resurface.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Frostie

[124SqZeljava]

Ok, for ED testers!!?

 

What will happen with those guy`s who fire and run and i have them on my LOCK ON? I fire missile from mach 1, missile run on mach 2 and bandit goes 900Kmh!!! after that, when he show me his 6 my FAST missile can`t reach him even if he is 20, 15 Km far away from, is this question normal. I know that some pilot`s had died in this situation in real life, real situation, so how this game is realistic.

Team Tester answare this!!!!

[Vekkinho]

I get what you are trying to say (your joke). Extending on that idea though I have some FYI. These not exact figures, but close enough

 

High-value A2A

Number of F-15 produced: around 1500 (shown as ~1500)

Number of Su-27 produced: ~700

 

Low-value A2A

Number of F-16 produced: ~4500

Number of MiG-29 produced: ~1600

 

Naval

Number of F-18 produced: 1480

Number of Su-33 produced: 24

 

Attack Helo:

Number of AH-64 produced: 1158

Number of Ka-50/52 produced: 26

 

Ok, the exact numbers of variants and sub-variants will change these figures, but certainly not enough to appreciably change the balance (and aircraft of US and Russian allies of other types are also excluded).

 

So, the realistic scenario is actually to have more F-15s and F-16s with better electronics, weaponry and logistics against fewer Su-27 and MiG-29 with fewer advanced weapons (and with likely lower reliability in use). The games we have now are balanced by scenario designers (which is a good thing so everyone can enjoy it!) in terms of numbers of platforms. In real life this is not a likely scenario at all. Please accept this so we can move on.

 

So, my point is, folks here are complaining about minor variations in engine thrust or missile seekers for their various favourite platforms while deliberately ignoring "The Elephant in the Room" - the fact that the colossal economy of the USA not only produced arguably better stuff for its specialised purpose (USAF has more aircraft specialised for particular tasks), but also a significantly larger quantity of it.

 

You all accept this unrealistic aspect of the game without thinking much about it - which makes sense since the game is much more fun that way - but then why do you all insist on bickering over small aspects that ED have recognised as being incorrect and been moved to be more slightly more realistic ? (without being really 'real' which would give the crushing dominance you would expect in real life).

 

I for one am looking forward to missiles with more restricted parameters. That way we have to get closer for a kill which is much more exciting.

 

Shame we won't get seeker slew rate limitations and a whole bunch of other stuff that I guess is too much of a pain to model, but as a developer I understand the trade-offs completely (not everyone can afford the latest and greatest hardware). I feel sorry for the ED developers who get bad (and badly informed) comments no matter what they try to do - the upside is, at least they make products with passionate users.

 

I'm well aware of this fact, you may remember I said that 4:1 ratio only works during MAKS airshows...

[124SqZeljava]

BTW, i don`t know as any of you saw in your life how fast missile is flying on the sky leaving her white trail, 1999 ???vs???

[Pilotasso]

This is likely to close this hypocrit thread (good!) but lets facet it:

 

The quote and link below are from a thread I posted 4 years ago when i first discovered the seekers bugs and asked for all missiles therefore to be fixed at a time when a patch or an addon were considered but unlikely. Some of the same people ranting in this thread told me then it was ED's intent to balance the game and advised me to suck it up. Basicaly they destroyed a constructive thread for the sake of their agendas.

 

 

Now, 4 years later after those people having their way all this time, FC2.0 is coming with some of the same fixes I sugested. So they come back press on further by arguing with their own biased notions of realism and balance (these 2 items are not exacty compatible anyway) by the means of nutering the AIM-120C despite it is the slowest easiest to dodge BVR missile in game.

 

 

It has become to the point where they ignore before all evidence that the AMRAAM is not the only single item to be fixed, so that their victimised cries can be heard the loudest.

 

As people get to know more and more of the 1.12a "singularities" I came across 2 of them.

 

Lately I have been alarmed by the amount of times anyone gets killed by R-27ET and wondered exactly why this is so. I Mean, there are alot of other missiles that in theory outranges it, you get to dump flares to spoof it off at the last 10 miles to target, if you know where the oposition is. (otherwise you get sniped at as a penalty for not having SA)

 

I found out lately, in the last 2-3 weeks, much to my upset that this is not so simple. Sometimes I see my team mates or myself being wiped out out of the sky from seamlessly invisible enemy without warning. After thinking much I arrived at the conclusion that we did cover the whole airspace and who fired it was indeed the ones in front of us but like 20% 40% further away than we expected them to fire their R-27ET's!

 

So I went to experiment of my own. Made a fast batle and set up 4 bandits far away armed with SARH and ARH missiles. Usualy you get a launch authorization at like 15-20 klicks, but this time I fired them somewehere between 25-30 klicks away. To my surprise they guided and hit their targets much more often than I suposed possible. Not only that but this missile will lead porsuit a target at 90º off its seeker. This enabled me stealthy kills and room to evade ANY missiled they thrown at me.

 

It is my opinion that in 1.2 this should get fixed along with the AMRAAM because I think with a bit of skill you can outrange slammer shots with an IR missile!!

 

I will try to make a track of this later.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=15176&highlight=anomalies

 

 

 

 

So now suck it up and be gone for HAWX. Even there other players wont be bulied online while trying to have some fun.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Pilotasso

[124SqZeljava]

I must say that in 1.02 su33 was the strongest plane with SAR missile`s, longer range, not loosing lock, SPLASH!!! In FC, su33 is so funny plane, he can do shtt, in 1.02 for 1 hour playing my record was 34 kills with su33, only thing that can brake my lock was mountain, if you make all this true like before, MP maps will be diferente than it is now. I don`t have nothing against for 120 to be danger efective, just make SAR as they should be, and i will deal with f15 with no problems.

[Frostie]

This is likely to close this hypocrit thread (good!) but lets facet it:

 

The quote and link below are from a thread I posted 4 years ago when i first discovered the seekers bugs and asked for all missiles therefore to be fixed at a time when a patch or an addon were considered but unlikely. Some of the same people ranting in this thread told me then it was ED's intent to balance the game and advised me to suck it up. Basicaly they destroyed a constructive thread for the sake of their agendas.

 

 

Now, 4 years later after those people having their way all this time, FC2.0 is coming with some of the same fixes I sugested. So they come back press on further by arguing with their own biased notions of realism and balance (these 2 items are not exacty compatible anyway) by the means of nutering the AIM-120C despite it is the slowest easiest to dodge BVR missile in game.

That must have scarred you deep, which people are we talking about here because the only posters I see in that thread and this one are GG and yourself ?

 

What I can make out you want the ET muted and the 120 made faster, though I'd agree with you, you were hardly putting forward the impartial argument your claiming here.

[Pilotasso]

You are incorrect about being just me and GG. ;) And also the same matter was discussed on many htreads linked to that one where alot more people came saying the exact same farfeched biased argumentative reasons for letting the game unfixed.

 

Its not like the people crying here are eaxcelty alone...

[Frostie]

You are incorrect about being just me and GG. ;) And also the same matter was discussed on many htreads linked to that one where alot more people came saying the exact same farfeched biased argumentative reasons for letting the game unfixed.

 

Its not like the people crying here are eaxcelty alone...

So your saying im crying for wanting what you've wanted for the last X years. That'll be the hypocrisy your looking for.

 

Im taking a shot in the dark that your implying some former and present squad buddies of mine. I take it you nod and agree with whatever your friends say and don't debate or disagree with anything they say, sounds like a boring view on life.

You take this Flanker v F-15 business too serious, on a serious side im most definately pro NATO and have no reason to take and create sides, this idea that im in some sort of pro Flanker clik is nauseus.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Frostie

[Groove]

Ok, for ED testers!!?

 

What will happen with those guy`s who fire and run and i have them on my LOCK ON? I fire missile from mach 1, missile run on mach 2 and bandit goes 900Kmh!!! after that, when he show me his 6 my FAST missile can`t reach him even if he is 20, 15 Km far away from, is this question normal. I know that some pilot`s had died in this situation in real life, real situation, so how this game is realistic.

Team Tester answare this!!!!

 

How about you work about your attitude on this forums in first place. You can ask people to answer you questions, not demand them.

[124SqZeljava]

How about you work about your attitude on this forums in first place. You can ask people to answer you questions, not demand them.

What in the hell is wrong with my question, pls don`t change the subject;)

[124SqZeljava]

I must say that in 1.02 su33 was the strongest plane with SAR missile`s, longer range, not loosing lock, SPLASH!!! In FC, su33 is so funny plane, he can do shtt, in 1.02 for 1 hour playing my record was 34 kills with su33, only thing that can brake my lock was mountain, if you make all this true like before, MP maps will be diferente than it is now. I don`t have nothing against for 120 to be danger efective, just make SAR as they should be, and i will deal with f15 with no problems.

 

 

What is wrong here???

[Fahhh]

Ok, for ED testers!!?

 

What will happen with those guy`s who fire and run and i have them on my LOCK ON? I fire missile from mach 1, missile run on mach 2 and bandit goes 900Kmh!!! after that, when he show me his 6 my FAST missile can`t reach him even if he is 20, 15 Km far away from, is this question normal. I know that some pilot`s had died in this situation in real life, real situation, so how this game is realistic.

Team Tester answare this!!!!

 

Well it's not that hard to outrun a missile. Even at less than 20km, with an appropriate manouever, you can safely outrun almost any missile. What is it so hard to believe? Read a bit about missile energy and kinematics.

 

When fired, your missile has only a few seconds of powered flight, it's motor burns the fuel quickly. And then it begins slowing down, while the fighter, probably still some 10km away from it continues to accelerate and dive low, in the denser air, which slows the missile even more.

 

I must say that in 1.02 su33 was the strongest plane with SAR missile`s, longer range, not loosing lock, SPLASH!!! In FC, su33 is so funny plane, he can do shtt, in 1.02 for 1 hour playing my record was 34 kills with su33, only thing that can brake my lock was mountain, if you make all this true like before, MP maps will be diferente than it is now. I don`t have nothing against for 120 to be danger efective, just make SAR as they should be, and i will deal with f15 with no problems.

 

 

Lol, you playing Air-Quake? The 33 in 1.12 is not as bad as you describe it... Probably you just don't know how to use it properly...

[Pilotasso]

So your saying im crying for wanting what you've wanted for the last X years. That'll be the hypocrisy your looking for.

 

Im taking a shot in the dark that your implying some former and present squad buddies of mine. I take it you nod and agree with whatever your friends say and don't debate or disagree with anything they say, sounds like a boring view on life.

You take this Flanker v F-15 business too serious, on a serious side im most definately pro NATO and have no reason to take and create sides, this idea that im in some sort of pro Flanker clik is nauseus.

 

 

Your joking right?

 

Do you end every discussion by reversing roles with the person your talking with?

 

 

You ignore the fact I fly all aircraft on purpose just as you ignore and blindfold yourself narrow about other things just to try get your point across.

[124SqZeljava]

Who am i insolting demanding or what ever, if TT don`t wanna answer, then it`s ok with me, i know all ready answer by not answering.

 

Cheers moderator ;)

[124SqZeljava]

Well it's not that hard to outrun a missile. Even at less than 20km, with an appropriate manouever, you can safely outrun almost any missile. What is it so hard to believe? Read a bit about missile energy and kinematics.

 

When fired, your missile has only a few seconds of powered flight, it's motor burns the fuel quickly. And then it begins slowing down, while the fighter, probably still some 10km away from it continues to accelerate and dive low, in the denser air, which slows the missile even more.

 

 

 

 

Lol, you playing Air-Quake? The 33 in 1.12 is not as bad as you describe it... Probably you just don't know how to use it properly...

Ok mister Fahh, let`s meat tonight at HL and i will show you how bad su33 is with 29, shell we???

[Frostie]

Your joking right?

 

Do you end every discussion by reversing roles with the person your talking with?

 

 

You ignore the fact I fly all aircraft on purpose just as you ignore and blindfold yourself narrow about other things just to try get your point across.

What have I said that would make your statement valid?

All i've asked for in these last several pages are realistic missiles.

[Pilotasso]

Oh yeah?

 

So by making the sim unrealistic, makes it better, if it can't be done realistically then 120's need to be used more as a SARH instead of uber missiles.

 

Like i've pointed out before, realism only suits some guys on certain issues.

They are neither uber-missiles, nor is your version of unrealism (using them as SARH missiles? Heh) any better than what there is now. I know what you're driving at. Not going to happen.

 

Your sure your not reversing roles again?

[Fahhh]

Ok mister Fahh, let`s meat tonight at HL and i will show you how bad su33 is with 29, shell we???

 

Where did you read that I can fly it properly. I'm a MiG pilot and am sticking to it, but I know some people that are quite good with the Su-33.

 

Yet you don't wanna discuss anything, just continuing your bla-bla non-sense. Go play 1.02, score 34 kills and be an ace :) Not gonna reply to pointless posts anymore...

[Frostie]

Oh yeah?

 

 

 

 

Your sure your not reversing roles again?

Them quotes are to do with the fact that missiles will never be realistic in lockon. So whats your point?

The missiles have been made slightly less unrealistic in 2.0 but still unrealistic because as GG points out they can't be made realistic.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Frostie

[Pilotasso]

Them quotes are to do with the fact that missiles will never be realistic in lockon. So whats your point?

The missiles have been made slightly less unrealistic in 2.0 but still unrealistic because as GG points out they can't be made realistic.

 

 

Now its the part you blind yourself narrow again to go arround and arround. Your point of view depends entirely of not getting it.

 

 

Im donne with this.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Pilotasso

[124SqZeljava]

Where did you read that I can fly it properly. I'm a MiG pilot and am sticking to it, but I know some people that are quite good with the Su-33.

 

Yet you don't wanna discuss anything, just continuing your bla-bla non-sense. Go play 1.02, score 34 kills and be an ace :) Not gonna reply to pointless posts anymore...

Then why you don`t fly su33 on HL, cos everybody will WHOOP YR A**, cos SAR are jokes, and for me and you, i am definitly ACE pilot for you, you just don`t know that, i have kill you more then you will ever imagine:lol::lol::lol::pilotfly:

[*Rage*]

Why dont you guys just settle it online?

 

I personally cant wait for FC2. I have a pathological vendetta against F15s :)