ZaltysZ Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/2/7961/m7961942.pdf Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
IvanK Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 (edited) Aviation Week and Space Technolgy in a recent issue reports that late in the Voice recorder track can be heard the voices of 2 "Non Flight Crew members" on the flight deck. Interesting event if that is the case. It would be highly irregular to have non cockpit crew babbling in your ear in conditions that where obviously pretty demanding. The facts are that it took place. Just my personal opinion but I think a bit of pressure was being applied to the Capt to get in. As to use of Radar Altimeters in the approach I doubt that very much. Other than CAT II and CATIII approaches all minimas are based on pressure altimetery. Even then any RADALT minima is assessed taking into account topography in the immediate vicinity of the runway threshold. If you have ravines etc close to threshold etc then a RADALT minima (and for that matter a CATII/III ILS) would not be possible. As to visibility requirements if it was 50m visibility NO ONE ON the planet would be landing. Even CATIIIB equipped aircraft legally need 75M (or more) to land. Now the TU154 I can guarantee doesn't have CATIII capability in fact I bet it doesn't even have CATII capability. CATII requires Autoland capable aircraft with typical RADALT minima of say 100Ft (30m) with visibilty of 400M threshold 200m mid zone. Edited June 1, 2010 by IvanK 1
ZaltysZ Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) Translation? That is transcription of in cockpit voice recording of crashed Polish Tu-154. Table consists of: phrase start time, phrase end time, subject to which phrase belongs, phrase in Russian, phrase in Polish. Legend: КВС - captain 2П - 2nd pilot Б/И - engineer Д - ATC Б/П - stewardess А - unidentified subject 1958, DCMHS - communication of other planes (нрзб)/(niezr.) - non understandable phrase (нв) - cursing TAWS - Terrain Awareness and Warning System (видно.)/(привет.) - 2 different variants of the same phrase (2П) - likely subject {директор Казана} - note Legend in document does not contain information about who is ШТ, but I think it is probably the navigator (штурман). Some translation engine could be useful for translation of phrases. Most phrases are very simple. Edited June 2, 2010 by ZaltysZ 1 Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
Namenlos Ein Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 That is transcription of in cockpit voice recording of crashed Polish Tu-154. Table consists of: phrase start time, phrase end time, subject to which phrase belongs, phrase in Russian, phrase in Polish. Legend: Б/П - voice warning system … Б/П — stewardess. This transcript has Classified (Не подлежит разглашению) caption on the every page and the warning about prohibition of publication on page 40 (page 3 in PDF file). 1
ZaltysZ Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) Б/П — stewardess. Yeah, sorry. What I was thinking ... :). Edited. This transcript has Classified (Не подлежит разглашению) caption on the every page and the warning about prohibition of publication on page 40 (page 3 in PDF file). Yes, it has. There were talks that it was going to be published and it seems that was done. Transcript can also be found on the site of Ministry of Internal Affairs and Administration of Poland (http://www.mswia.gov.pl). Edited June 2, 2010 by ZaltysZ Wir sehen uns in Walhalla.
ED Team Groove Posted June 2, 2010 ED Team Posted June 2, 2010 1st PULL UP Warning 23 seconds before contact with the trees... Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
JLZ Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 Someone already gave this link and now it is updated with recent info: http://avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0 Another reconstruction. 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Bucic Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 (edited) 1st PULL UP Warning 23 seconds before contact with the trees... IIRC TAWS was set to 130 m. They wanted (against procedures) to "look for the ground" below 100 m so obviously they were getting constant voice warnings. In such conditions people tend to ignore the warnings and loose attention. The whole idea of TAWS goes to trash. The Aviation Herald: The airplane first impacted a barrier 40 meters left of the extended centerline of the runway and 1100 meters before the threshold of the runway at an altitude, that was 15 meters BELOW the runway elevation. So there's no doubt the crew used radar altimeter for the approach. So: - the crew flew below Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA) of ~100 m (they flew 20 m without seeing the ground) - the crew used radar altimeter over a ravine which led them to a an altitude BELOW the runway treshold at some point - the crew went for horrendous rate of descend of 10 m/s below mentioned minimum altitude of 100 m !!! Edit: One thing still bothers me. At altitude ~70 m the second pilot says "We go around." and yet another 5 seconds pass by with the navigator loudly counting down altitude down to 20 m!. Another 8 s pass before the collision with the trees => * they flatten out their flight path during those 8 seconds.* Another thing - at 20 m AGL they should clearly feel the ground proximity effect on lift! Edited June 2, 2010 by Bucic 1 F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
IvanK Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 TAWS is generally hard coded in the Aircraft as part of its certification. Its relatively complex with multiple modes that vary depending on the aircraft.
Bucic Posted June 2, 2010 Posted June 2, 2010 TAWS is generally hard coded in the Aircraft as part of its certification. Its relatively complex with multiple modes that vary depending on the aircraft. I'm just saying it started to warn the crew at ~130 m. It changes nothing, I think, including that I don't understand the crew actions at all. The control column deflection chart would help a lot. Still not much as up to 5 seconds before crash the autopilot was given authority over the AC. F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
eurofor Posted June 3, 2010 Posted June 3, 2010 English translation: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AsMbQ9zoqsX0dHoxcWh3QTFCQ2hubU1jQlVWMjdnY3c&hl=en [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Namenlos Ein Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Final report on the accident on 10 April 2010, on Smolensk “Severny” airdrome, to the Tupolev Tu-154m tail number 101 of the Republic of Poland. http://www.mak.ru/english/info/tu-154m_101.html or http://video.mail.ru/corp/news/MAK/8.html
MoGas Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 very bad, in the news they said, the commander who was present in the cockpit was drunken, and had given pressure too the crew for landing here and right now.....
Boberro Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Personally I mostly agree with report - pression ect but I don't believe Russians aren't with any fault too - they're. But as I said huge fault is on Polish side, it is obvious, sad many politics in Poland can't accept facts. Just my few cents. Edited January 13, 2011 by Boberro Reminder: Fighter pilots make movies. Bomber pilots make... HISTORY! :D | Also to be remembered: FRENCH TANKS HAVE ONE GEAR FORWARD AND FIVE BACKWARD :D ಠ_ಠ ツ
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Final report on the accident on 10 April 2010, on Smolensk “Severny” airdrome, to the Tupolev Tu-154m tail number 101 of the Republic of Poland. http://www.mak.ru/english/info/tu-154m_101.html or http://video.mail.ru/corp/news/MAK/8.htmlI wish there somebody will translate this video in English. 1 Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
kaiserb_uk Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I wish there somebody will translate this video in English. With excellent english commentary. http://en.rian.ru/video/20110112/162117872.html 1
Bucic Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 very bad, in the news they said, the commander who was present in the cockpit was drunken, and had given pressure too the crew for landing here and right now..... It's amazing that such a thing made to the final report, including the psychological pressure as a factor, and a possible pressure on ATC officers was not even investigated. The correspondence between ATC and some Moscow official wasn't even included (sic!). the crew flew below Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA) of ~100 m (they flew 20 m without seeing the ground) is enough for me as a report the crew used radar altimeter for final approach is enough for me as a report etc. I don't need a description of a set of 30 broken procedures, neither a description of Russians' actions, unless they gave the Polish crew some clearly misleading command that led to the catastrophe. But the fact I mentioned at the beginning of my post is simply ridiculous. AFAIK, they didn't even have enough courtesy to throw some flaws on the Russian side solely for looks. F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
Sticky Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 A horrible thing to watch :( Atleast they died fast.. AFAIK, they didn't even have enough courtesy to throw some flaws on the Russian side solely for looks. This is just a good thing IMO [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] My Sim/Game CV: Falcon 1,3,4. Gunship. A10 TankKiller. Fighter Bomber. Strike eagle 2&3. F19 Stealth Fighter. F117. Wings. F29 Retaliator. Jetfighter II. F16 Fighting Falcon. Strike Commander. F22 Raptor. F16MRF. ATF. EF2000. Longbow 1&2. TankKiller2 Silent Thunder. Hind. Apache Havoc. EECH. EAW. F22 ADF. TAW. Janes WW2,USAF,IAF,F15,F18. F18 Korea. F18 Super Hornet. B17 II. CFS 2. Flanker 2&2.5. BOB. Mig Alley. IL2. LOMAC. IL2FB. FC2. DCS:BS. DCS:A10C.
Bucic Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 A horrible thing to watch :( Atleast they died fast.. Only relatively fast... This is just a good thing IMO I'm not saying they should do it "for the looks". I'm saying that there are always some flaws, at least some not of the most serious kind, that come up to the surface when air crash is investigated. Here - nothing, AFAIK. But again, I'm more worried about what will happen in my country next. The most realistic scenario: - no serious consequences will be enforced, except on some scapegoats - there will be no real change in the mentality of Polish Air Force officers - (the worst part) the same mentality will be injected into the next generation of cadets Than as a citizen you could come to only one realization - if that tragedy didn't make someone re-think everything on the high levels NOTHING EVER will shake them of their lethargy. May I remind you that we already had a "prelude" crash to that of Smolensk - CASA C-295M crash on 23 January 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirosławiec_air_accident Over 20 Air Force officers died, including some high-rank ones. What has changed after that? Oh, it changed. For worse (general situation in Polish Air Force). Smolensk as well as many other incidents showed that no lessons were learned. 1 F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
topol-m Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I don't believe Russians aren't with any fault too - they're. And what exactly is their fault? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
ED Team Groove Posted January 13, 2011 ED Team Posted January 13, 2011 Either we can have a debate about the accident and the report without politics or this thread will be closed. Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
Bucic Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) And what exactly is their fault? I personally can't think of any. I was rather pro actually investigating some of the areas instead of leaving them blank (still about ATC blokes). Just to be clear. I just wanted to stress that you can't blame ATCs for "horizon! command being issued too late", IMO. There was no procedure that would allow the A/C to descend below Minimum Descent Altitude (MDA) of 100 m, so I wouldn't be surprised if the leading ATC thoughts were something like this: They should go around bouncing of that MDA of 100 m I gave them... 110... 100... 90... eh... ... 60...:huh: 40! WTF?!? ... HORIZONT! Edited January 13, 2011 by Bucic F-5E simpit cockpit dimensions and flight controls Kill the Bloom - shader glow mod Poor audio Doppler effect in DCS [bug] Trees - huge performance hit especially up close
topol-m Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) Either we can have a debate about the accident and the report without politics or this thread will be closed. If this was directed at me, that`s exactly why I`m asking if there is any evidence for some mistakes on the russian side or it`s politics. Finding out who/how/why did wrong to get to this disaster is a debate about the accident a think you will agree. BTW Boberro clear your mail box, it`s as full as a good child`s socks are full of toys on Christmas. :) Edited January 13, 2011 by topol-m [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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