DU ammunition (split from 30mm AP thread)

[sobek]

The russians use DU ammunition too, although they won't tell in what ammunition. Furthermore, the alternative for AP rounds would most likely be tungsten, which has even higher density than DU (though the difference is small, 19.25 vs 19.1).

 

Yes but tungsten is not pyrophoric and AFAIK not self sharpening like the DU ammunition, which might give it an edge.

 

As an aside, alternatives to DU penetrators (tungsten-alloys) are far more poisonous than DU, according to current research. :huh:

[EtherealN]

Not really all that strange - the only proven toxicity in DU is the same as most other heavy metals. The radation is pretty much a non-issue since the highly active isotopes have been removed ("depleted" uranium) and the isotopes that remain generally produce only very very little radon-group decay products, minimising the gamma radiation.

 

Still being actively researched of course, since most "good" areas for looking at it suffer some problems in gathering good controllable data points simply because they tend to be warzones.

[Feuerfalke]

The problem with DU-Ammo does not come from radiation or 'general toxicity', but from the fact that DU is extremely hard and as such tends to pulverize rather than deforms like tungsten shells, for example.

 

This partially pulverization on impact causes very small particles that inhaled get into the smallest alveolus. From here it can easily enter the bloodstream and the sharp form causes lungcancer just the same way as asbestos does.

 

Additionally the fine particles can produce cellular and mutations when ingested.

[ShadowVonChadwick]

So it not the cigarettes that will give me cancer but FC2.

 

OR it might be our politicians here, cause many think they have depleted craniums??

[Feuerfalke]

OR it might be our politicians here, cause many think they have depleted craniums??

 

 

:megalol:

 

 

THAT is a global problem. :D

[sweinhart3]

or for that matter your microwave. After all you directly radiate your food on a daily basis lol.

[sweinhart3]

UAARGHHHH for the sake of your physics knowledge, hope that was a joke. ;)

 

I meant it as a joke. I am aware of the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation. Ive never heard of people dying because of depleted uranium that was used who wouldnt have died if it was a different kind of metal. My point is thats it equally rediculous. And if it really produced a poisonous cloud of heavy metal in any significant quantity that affected non-combatants, it would be illegal to use it.

Edited April 30, 2010 by sweinhart3

[SUBS17]

I meant it as a joke. I am aware of the difference between ionizing and non-ionizing radiation. Ive never heard of people dying because of depleted uranium that was used who wouldnt have died if it was a different kind of metal. My point is thats it equally rediculous. And if it really produced a poisonous cloud of heavy metal in any significant quantity that affected non-combatants, it would be illegal to use it.

 

FYI

Uranium is pyrophoric, as shown in the vaporization of depleted uranium penetrator rounds into burning dust upon impact with their targets. In finely divided form it is readily ignitable, and uranium scrap from machining operations is subject to spontaneous ignition

 

The Institute of Nuclear Technology-Radiation Protection of Attiki, Greece, has noted that "the aerosol produced during impact and combustion of depleted uranium munitions can potentially contaminate wide areas around the impact sites or can be inhaled by civilians and military personnel. In a three week period of conflict in Iraq during 2003 it was estimated over 1000 tons of depleted uranium munitions were used. The U.S. Department of Defense claims that no human cancer of any type has been seen as a result of exposure to either natural or depleted uranium. Yet, studies using cultured cells and laboratory rodents continue to suggest the possibility of leukemogenic, genetic, reproductive, and neurological effects from chronic exposure. In addition, the UK Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service in early 2004 attributed birth defect claims from a February 1991 Gulf War combat veteran to depleted uranium poisoning. Also, a 2005 epidemiology review concluded: "In aggregate the human epidemiological evidence is consistent with increased risk of birth defects in offspring of persons exposed to DU. WHO figures from 2004 give Iraq the world's highest incidence of Lymphoma.

 

I've seen a documentary about Iraq it has alot of problems with Birth defects over there because of this stuff.

[GGTharos]

'A lot' being 0.4% more in an affected area.

 

I've seen a documentary about Iraq it has alot of problems with Birth defects over there because of this stuff.

[SUBS17]

'A lot' being 0.4% more in an affected area.

 

I think its more than that.

[GGTharos]

There are real and serious studies of the issue.

 

'Thinking' is not a method by which useful statistics are generated.

 

I think its more than that.

[SUBS17]

There are real and serious studies of the issue.

 

'Thinking' is not a method by which useful statistics are generated.

 

Theres some info on it here:

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2374

 

It might take a few years for the actual numbers to be revealed.

 

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

[EtherealN]

Subs... One is an article by a globalization publication, the other is a news outlet. That's not a "real and serious study" in either case.

 

And that's the problem: lots of people can dig up quotes to either side of the fence, but there's a definite shortage of real studies - you know, where they take samples, correct for other variables and thereby start the chain of going from correlation towards possible causation. An example is Fallujah - there's been hints at a correlation there, but correlation how? Just having two things at the same time doesn't mean either caused the other. And that's where we are lacking good information right now - the literature has been woefully slow in building up.

 

So far this does, to me, look a bit like the whole thing about cell phones causing cancer. There's research being done but most of it is either inconclusive or negative - there was one type of cancer where they said they "saw an effect", which basically means a statistical correlation that's outside the error margins; but they were unable to control it to ensure that it was the cell phones specifically or similar radio sources - or just some lifestyle choice common amongst cell phone users.

 

Bit of digging should be able to produce some results from the highway of death and such sites from previous wars (I should get a pubmed account), but most of the ones I've been able to find previously have not been able to identify an effect. And remember - correlation is not (necessarily) an effect. That's the big problem in researching things where tonnes of variables might have similar effects.

[ShadowVonChadwick]

Will see in 5-20 years from now.

 

If we last that long

Edited May 1, 2010 by ShadowVonChadwick

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I prefer reading actual published research from journals, not someone's spin on them.

 

Theres some info on it here:

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2374

 

It might take a few years for the actual numbers to be revealed.

 

http://www.seattlepi.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

DU is nuclear weapon. I wonder if KFOR in Kosovo i Metohija (KiM) is getting their vegetable supplies from a local market?

[Lava]

I had to laugh a little when I read this thread. I understand how studies are required and how anecdotal evidence is not proof, but GGTharos, you're asking for the impossible. There isn't a long-term epidemiological study being done anywhere that looks at DU effects from before and after the war, and that's the only type of evidence you will accept. Not to mention doing such a study in Fallujah would be ... difficult to say the least. I can't IMAGINE the military helping such a study.

 

I have a feeling you'd be a LOT more upset if these DU munitions were being fired in your backyard.

[GGTharos]

Um, who wouldn't be upset?

Really, I'd be upset about ANY munitions being fired in my back-yard.

Which of what you offered is a reason for me to jump on the 'zomg DU is the devil and it's completely razing anything it touches' bandwagon?

Were you aware that DU is used as ballast in aircraft among other things?

 

Studies may be difficult to do, but they're already indicating that a number of problems attributed to DU were in fact misdiagnoses to start with.

Edited May 1, 2010 by GGTharos

[Lava]

Um, who wouldn't be upset?

Really, I'd be upset about ANY munitions being fired in my back-yard.

Which of what you offered is a reason for me to jump on the 'zomg DU is the devil and it's completely razing anything it touches' bandwagon?

 

After I posted, I was musing to myself that I too would be upset about any munition at all being used in my backyard, seems like you beat me to that point! I'd be a little more upset if it was DU, but only if I was alive to fuss about it in a few years.

 

I wasn't trying to get you to jump on the bandwagon. It's just frustrating to see people demand iron-clad studies when none are going to come out until any consequences have either happened or not. To draw a somewhat unfair comparison, the same need for studies was present when we used defoliant agents in Vietnam. (Please please nobody start a flamewar over this reference, pointing out why it may or may not apply is fine, but I'm really not trying to start a discussion about this relatively ancient topic).

 

That all said, I don't really have a better suggestion aside from "wait for iron-clad studies." Obviously the military isn't going to stop using the stuff just because it 'might' be harmful. It's designed to kill people. (Edit) Oh, I do have a suggestion, don't use it until it's been studied. I'm not normally a fan of that approach since you can never prove something is harmless.... and we are dealing with a weapon here. But it's still an option.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Lava

[GGTharos]

I wasn't demanding iron-clad studies. Just pointing out that some people like to talk about things without consulting what is factually known, rather than what the tv/newspaper of the week said.

[SUBS17]

I think it was 60minutes or something they mentioned it was daily where people were reporting cases of birth defects in Iraq. Which is why I mentioned it quite nasty stuff.

[Lava]

I wasn't demanding iron-clad studies. Just pointing out that some people like to talk about things without consulting what is factually known, rather than what the tv/newspaper of the week said.

 

Fair enough, my apologies. I'm in agreement here!

[Griffin]

Don't know much about the subject but I remember seeing some documentary on TV where they showed a large water tank in an Iraqi neighbourhood. The tank got hit by a DU round that was still in there. They measured high levels of radiation.

 

Also, I stumbled over this:

 

No rad stands for no radiation. Due to possible fracticide during the no initial stages of the conflict it was important to know if a friendly vehicle was hit by a DU projectile, if hit with DU there are special handling procedures that must be followed.

[GGTharos]

If hit with ANY projectile that is either DU, or reaches the DU armor, you need some hazmat procedures to avoid INHALING the highly toxic dust. At this point, radiation might not be the least of your worries, but you'll likely have bigger problems anyway.

 

And BTW, DU does not produce 'high levels of radiation'. It's pretty mild by comparison to the stuff that'll melt your eyeballs.

Edited May 2, 2010 by GGTharos

[EtherealN]

I think it was 60minutes or something they mentioned it was daily where people were reporting cases of birth defects in Iraq. Which is why I mentioned it quite nasty stuff.

 

But that's the point: 60 minutes isn't a good source either. It's a bunch of journalists. And birth defects can be caused by a lot of different things - especially in a warzone where all kinds of bad stuff is spread into the environment; and not all of it being munitions - you'll have to implement controls for factors like environmental damage due to damaged factories, warehouses, fuel depots and all such fun stuff. All of them can cause lots of damage - but it's (almost) only the DU that attracts the attention of the media because it's "omg radioactive" and therefore a good story.