Lockon 1.2.1 ...few thoughts on Flightmodel

[A.S]

Ok....NOW we can speak about proper flying and laws to be taken care off in a BFM scenario.

 

I made couple rounds vs a very good pilot and it is excellent (only F-15 though, rest to be tested)

 

Also the "numbers" to be tested also though... but if there are flaws, then i think they will be minor or/and due to the SFM (like the ability

to make a full loop in a 90degs bank only using rudders), but the BFM scenarios accurs totally logically in beauty in most aspects which is very fine.

To make it short for now, the F-15 has to be flown like one, favours you if you do, punishes you if you dont.

 

This is just a quick impression of mine, but IMO this is the best BFM plattform ever in lockon series and further tests and opinions to come.

 

Would also love to hear your all opinions as regards this topic.

Looking forward to prepare TCL for 2.0 with pleasure.

 

And where the #### is Yo-Yo, let me give you a wet KISS :D Good Job!

Edited May 8, 2010 by A.S

[71st_Mastiff]

Yes total agree with you A.S.

[Frostie]

Good stuff , but how do

you write in the middle?

[zerol]

+1

[Boberro]

Good stuff , but how do

you write in the middle?

 

Simply text formatting :P

[Sanch0]

At a first look it looks good :happy:

[Pilotasso]

I confess I havent even noticed the raptor like FM of FC2.0, I actualy never needed to slow down that much in MP even though I did use the cannon half a dozen times.

[RvEYoda]

The problems were below M 0.4 and especially if you had flaps out, you could do some crazy

turns in the unpatched version :P. Above that speed you wouldn't exceed the real F-15

performance. With the patch the issues below 0.4 should be solved.

[A.S]

The Flaps "solution" is also fine.

 

You can not manually toggle them in old fashion, but you can "activate" them to be deployed under 250kts and they retract again once exceeding this speed (which is nice), but if you forget to deactive them, they will deploy again once under 250kts.

The drag factor of the Flaps is significant how it should be (just the size of them and the postion compared to your board alone supports this logic) and this is also fine. You dont use them "to turn" better and you cant, great.

Only in very few cases like a very slow situations like high alt scissors you may use them to "lift" and fight gravtiy where both fighters have nothing else left to do so...or maybe in descending scissors to reduce your droprate....etc etc...but not "to turn" better or to gain angles for the last few degrees missing before firing. If you do so ...good luck turning into a "sitting duck".

 

I flew intense rounds with a very good pilot (he may reveal his name on his own wish) and it was the first time we both felt one thing: "THIS IS MODERN JET-DOGFIGTHING".

Speeds, seperations, related turningrooms, AoA considerations, entering-room, aspects, vertical generalship (an expression by KV), the importance of a patient hand and the timings of "pressing" and "unloading" in that counterplay including maneuver geometry and history....all those things NOW reflect very close the brilliance given in AF.

Even though the damages (damage model) consists of mostly only crucial parts (like "one engine", hydro etc...) and futher detailed malfunctions are missing, it is not so easy to gun a smart pilot who is aware of gun defense and denying firing solutions...so even here gunnery skills are required now (working the piper and what after miss ....etc etc).

Compared to "1.12 style dogfighting" (pull as hard as possible as quick as possible and fire while "standing on your tail" with no speed left in hope to lazer-hit the bandit ...or creeping alltime around just below corner-speed with lift and nose on bandit thinking only (dont think with your gun: quote Paploo) ....well those days are over and i have to say - even though i thought i never would say this - NOW you can and must apply proper BFM flying to defeat your bandit in Lockon, which is GREAT.

Edited May 8, 2010 by A.S

[RvEYoda]

The Flaps "solution" is also fine.

 

..., but if you forget to deactive them, they will deploy again once under 250kts.

 

Maybe you already knew, but this is actually how the real F-15 operates. In the real F-15

the flaps will auto retract above 250 kts and automatically come back down when you

drop below 240. Kind of confusing :), but straight out of the flight manual.

[A.S]

No worry, we already smiled about some ideas brought into this patch like "hehe, who made have suggested this" :D

[RvEFuSiOn]

After Testing the Flight model with AS, I will now give FC2 my personal stamp of approval. ED has successfully managed to fix most issues with the Flight model, and now Dogfighting has been fixed.

F15 Now has to be flown with the same set of dogfighting skills that you would require in falcon4 and it behaves very naturally like a real F-15 would.

So where credit is due I have to give it, Congratulations for finally achieving a good platform ED.

"I Like it"

After 7yrs you have managed to achieve a FM on this aircraft thats worthy to dogfight with.

We have tested few flight regimes of the aircraft and so far I have no complaints.

GJ

 

Peace

[Frostie]

I flew intense rounds with a very good pilot (he may reveal his name on his own wish)

It was I, Fros-T. :D

I also give this my stamp of alrightiness.

And if there be any non believers I will be forced to make a poll.

[Wags]

Wow, that if that is not a stamp of approval for ACM in patched FC2 I don't know what is.

 

Glad you guys are having fun now.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Wags

[A.S]

How can you say "this feels like modern dogfighting"? Are you a real life pilot? If so I have some questions for you.

 

Justified question!

 

My opinion or expression is/was/can be based on numbers (flightperformance real data bla bla) and/or i can explain you in cases and examples in details why errors in modeling can lead to major differences in the outcome of a dogfight compared to a real one. Passion and expierience over years, but no, im not a real pilot.

But we have enough real jocks around here i think who can confirm probably in similar or better ways.

If i say "feel" ...well dont take that for granted ..

But, what would your question have been anyways if i would have been a real pilot ? :)

Edited May 8, 2010 by A.S

[A.S]

Is the gun that effective? Why is the Mig-29 not better at dogfighting when the US Air Force F-15 in Gulf War 1 told to not get in close with them? What do you think about using flaps in a dogfight, do real pilot do this (which I think they don't). Why does it work so well in lock on?

 

On that question "is gun really that effective?" we spent -no kidding- one day including ammonition infos, velocity, dispersion, kind ..you name it....and this question has been already somewhere answered in this forum.

For me its "ok" how it is, but yes damage is really strong once you hit a plane..almost like either "full dead or no dead" ...missing detailed other damages and malfunctions due to shells ..i agree on that.

Flaps? No, they dont and its explicitly warned to do so in the real manuals ..in other words not to alter the flight performances by manupulating the flaps in combat ...whereas ..its still up to the pilot to decide in very critical cases to use them or not.... provided he is in a regime which does not crack up his airframe by doing so.

Old saying: There are rules, and laws. Rules you can break, and sometimes you should, but you cant break laws. (physics)

 

The Mig-29 in 1.2.1 ..i havent tested yet..only the F-15. ...will be the next things to do...

Edited May 8, 2010 by A.S

[mikoyan]

I can't get the su-27 and f-15 to departure and enter into a flat spin... is that correct?

[EtherealN]

The MiG-29 is good at dogfighting, but the reason why F15 pilots would and should not "get close" to them is that they would then be willingly leaving the regime where they are strong (BVR) and entering the regime where the MiG is strong (WVR) - with off-boresight missiles and such fun stuff a merge with a MiG-29 is quite simply a risk not worth taking when you have the fuel to use the burners to just re-gain separation and take a new AIM-120 shot.

 

So it's not really a case of "do this and you'll die", it's a case of "you have no reason to do this".

 

Mikoyan: I can. Well, I haven't tried the Flanker, but getting the Eagle to depart is real easy. Standard spin-control-crossing will do it if you're in a dangerous flight regime. (Basically, get slow, increase your AoA, then cross controls and voila!)

[A.S]

 

So it's not really a case of "do this and you'll die", it's a case of "you have no reason to do this".

 

This doctrine has been punished badly in Korea (correction: Vietnam) War, where the NAVY relied too much on their missiles only on the F-4s without guns and quickly changed their minds by

adding gun-pods on the NAVY F-4 fighters after loosing couple airframes to the migs which came to close.

It is more like "what you do if this case really happens".

BFM is not only elementry in flight schools, it is even nowadays with all the modern far-range-weapons an important point.

 

But, if you have a chance to watch EM-charts of real F-15s and Mig-29s...just by looking only on that...you can see ..what to avoid, what to do, where your strenght and your weakness is in such a DACT encounter.

Edited May 10, 2010 by A.S

[EtherealN]

I think you mean Vietnam. ;)

 

As for the doctrine punishing itself - it didn't in Desert Storm, that's my point. In Vietnam the air power balance was much more even (at least over the north).

[Fahhh]

The Mig-29 in 1.2.1 ..i havent tested yet..only the F-15. ...will be the next things to do...

 

The MiG in 1.2/1.2.1 is a completely different beast as compared to 1.12. Pulling hard is a LOT more punishing(energy-wise). I haven't flown against other types, but we made some in-squad fights with the MiG, and those fights were nothing like the ones we had before. Instead of gradually going slower and slower in tight horizontal turns at SL, we tended to go higher and faster, trying to preserve and even gain energy in order to win the fight. And the interesting fact is that, we started the fight, expecting more or less the same fights we saw in 1.12. But 3 or 4 fights later we found ourselves doing completely different things. Now Rate (as in DPS) really kills... The changed dynamics, just guide you to a more proper way of doing ACM. The MiG has some sweet-speed-spots, where you can pull some pretty nice sustained turns, but you'll have to be careful at choosing the right moment to do it, and try not to lose too much energy. I'm looking very forward to trying the Fulcrum against some Eagles and Flankers... When flown properly, I think it will no longer be the underdog in LO:FC CAC...

Edited May 9, 2010 by Fahhh

[A.S]

Nice Fahh, good to hear. Sounds interesting. Looking forward to try it too.

[Moa]

I think you mean Vietnam. ;)

 

As for the doctrine punishing itself - it didn't in Desert Storm, that's my point. In Vietnam the air power balance was much more even (at least over the north).

 

In Vietnam the mission technology was far behind that of Desert Storm. Also the Rules of Engagement prohibited use of BVR weaponry until a target was positively identified as a hostile. The Rules of Engagement had far more of an effect on the combat than anything else.

 

In Desert Storm the US military made sure that the Pentagon and politicians were able to dictate what should be done, but not how to do it (in Vietnam the Pentagon tried to direct platoon-level firefights via radio, simply madness).

 

I only point this out because many people think that WVR combat made a comeback in Vietnam means that this will be true for all time. This is simply not the case. WVR combat is fun, good training, and makes great movies, but is far less common in LockOn than it used to be (as in recent real-life engagements). It is a good thing to learn but I would recommend working on your WVR first (which means the minutae of a particular aircraft's flight model doesn't matter so much, so no need to get worked up about it).

[RvEFuSiOn]

It is a good thing to learn but I would recommend working on your WVR first (which means the minutae of a particular aircraft's flight model doesn't matter so much, so no need to get worked up about it).

 

 

 

I have to respectfully disagree with you dude.

If you are a good BFM pilot you will be able to operate the JET in a BVR environment with more efficiency, specially vs multiple targets, where energy/maneuvering/altitude all play a very significant role. A pilot untrained in BFM will over pull the jet in various regimes of flight, whereas a pilot who consistently dogfights and understands BFM will be able to maneuver in all regimes of flight with maximum efficiency, reason being a dog fighter pushes the jets to its limits and very quickly figures out its sweet spots and flight regimes that he should avoid. This can be the difference between winning and losing an engagement. This is where a good flight model is paramount to overall game play.

 

Peace

[A.S]

I have to agree with Fusion.

Ask ANY fighterpilot who finished UPT and is in active duty, what he will tell you about modern close combat doctrines and why it is STILL very important.

 

..man, they havent put a gun on the raptor to simulate Lockon :D