My graphics.

[EtherealN]

To reinforce the power efficiency aspect:

Say you have a computer that draws 300 watts for your components. A "cheap" PSU might actually drink as much as 600 watts from your socket. A more expensive "enthusiast" level PSU labelled "80+" might only drink 375 watts to supply the same components, and in the case of "80+ silver" and gold even better. Even if the step might be 50 or 100 dollars you don't need to use your computer much to make the money back in reduced electricity bills.

 

Also, all the "waste wattage" in the PSU dissipates as heat, which depending on the chassis design might reduce your thermal headroom and raise wear and tear on all computer components even aside from issues like unstable votlage rails.

[rattler]

So......I can still get the 5670 before a new PSU, correct? Or maybe I should just get a new PSU first. But I'm stuck in 2004 gaming(with settings set to low)! And thanks for coming back with all your supersmartness.:)

 

Not a wise move, it was already stated the importance of a good quility PSU and 300 watts does not cut it.

[159th_Viper]

Not a wise move, it was already stated the importance of a good quality PSU and 300 watts does not cut it.

 

Aye - listen to rattler: He speaketh with unforked tongue! :D

 

One of my first 'essential' upgrades back in the day......Remarkable difference it made too!

[EtherealN]

Personally I'd get both at the same time. The fact that the card doesn't drink directly from the PSU makes things safer for you in trying to go with only that upgrade for now, but this depends a lot on motherboard and PSU, so I am hesitant to recommend it. If money is an object, consider the PSU first and if necessary (and bearable) live with the lesser performance for a month or two to save up for the card.

 

Consider that if money is in short supply you really want to minimize the risk of turning your computer into a bonfire.

[rattler]

Rattler, you are incorrent. Later-generation nVidia cards are much hotter than ATi cards. The difference in features is negligible for DCS and FC2, but the difference in heat is significant. Also note that it's not only a question of ventilation: an equally performing nVidia card can eat 50% more electricity than the ATi cards (in the 5xxx series at least), raising the operating costs of the computer dramatically since the graphics cards is typically dominant in a computer's electricity draw.

 

And I cannot tell you how much it hurt to say that, since I'm an nVidia fanbuy, but the lesser TDP of ATi cards is one major argument in making me look at ATi as my choice for my next computer.

 

Well not exactly I am running an asus 9600 gt oc. I had an Ati card borrowed and for the life of me I can't remember the number but it ran a lot hotter than the 9600. I will have to look at the ATI cards again when time comes but right now I don't need to replace this one. I did run a GPU cooler with the ATI card both borrowed and I think it was their offering after they came out with the x1900 series but which one I would have to ask the guys that built this one as they gave me one of theirs while waiting for this one. Cheers.

[EtherealN]

9600 is two things:

 

Extremely old.

More castrated than my cats.

The TDP of it mirrors these facts.

 

For current generation cards you are looking at 50% higher TDP on nVidia than you do on ATi (and higher purchase prices in the enthusiast range).

 

Basically, you are making the mistake of giving opinion on current hardware based on what is, respectfully, older than Plato. The GPU (and CPU) market turns fast enough that each generation of product can turn things around violently, and the cards you have mentioned are not only one but two generations old.

 

EDIT: Also, note that which cooler you use has absolutely zero effect on TDP (thermal design power, measured in watt). It affects your ability to dissipate the heat, but does nothing to change what you drink from your PSU. (Minor caveat: temperature does affect semicontuctor resistance, so the above isn't 100% true but the effect of the caveat is akin to measuring the difference of power draw from a lightbulb depending on whether your air conditioning is on or not - you won't notice.)

 

EDIT #2: I just noticed you're running a 9600 OC. You are aware of the fact that OverClocking ("OC" cards are factory overclocked) can raise your wattage as much as doubling it if coupled with an overvolt, which is usually necessary to achieve marketable effect?

Edited July 13, 2010 by EtherealN

[Sel94]

Thanks for all the tips guys. One more thing before looking for a PSU, will I have to take into account things like size or compatability or other things I don't know about? Thanks. Oh, and which brands are the best? Thanks again.

[rattler]

9600 is two things:

 

Extremely old.

More castrated than my cats.

The TDP of it mirrors these facts.

 

For current generation cards you are looking at 50% higher TDP on nVidia than you do on ATi (and higher purchase prices in the enthusiast range).

 

Basically, you are making the mistake of giving opinion on current hardware based on what is, respectfully, older than Plato. The GPU (and CPU) market turns fast enough that each generation of product can turn things around violently, and the cards you have mentioned are not only one but two generations old.

 

EDIT: Also, note that which cooler you use has absolutely zero effect on TDP (thermal design power, measured in watt). It affects your ability to dissipate the heat, but does nothing to change what you drink from your PSU. (Minor caveat: temperature does affect semicontuctor resistance, so the above isn't 100% true but the effect of the caveat is akin to measuring the difference of power draw from a lightbulb depending on whether your air conditioning is on or not - you won't notice.)

 

EDIT #2: I just noticed you're running a 9600 OC. You are aware of the fact that OverClocking ("OC" cards are factory overclocked) can raise your wattage as much as doubling it if coupled with an overvolt, which is usually necessary to achieve marketable effect?

 

Yes as cards go it is somewhat old but still a performer none the less. Yes ATI has in recent years run cooler cards. That still is not saying Nvidia is not a good card. Lots depend on system and of course price.Nvidia has always been the leader in the driver issue ring and with new Os's etc coming fast and furious is a nice plus. ATI in stats is most likely in the lead at the moment. However with DX11,surround sound and 3D,etc., the battle between ATI and Nvidia is going to be interesting. My systems are built not bought out of the box. I have a local company that know my needs and matches the performance I need. This is a new system and although the card may be old it will do the trick for now. When it is time to leap they will let me know its time to change. Sure I can do a little better but why spend bucks when the leap is not that great. When it comes time I will upgrade it. The rest of they system is able to take the next generation of GPU's.

 

The main point is not me but the person who requires sound information and suggestions. He has picked his card but(ATI). As was stated based on his system, the PSU is more important at this time than the GPU, unless he can manage the two at the same time. This is sound advice. Even you have explained quite nicely the reason a PSU is very important. This is his priority right now, not to jump at a GPU with a less then stelar PSU to support it. The info he needs right now is the brand name of a good solid PSU. It is not all about wattage either but quality. Some 1000watt PSU are less stelar than some 550 or 600 watt "quality" products. I will be asking my computer shop for some recommended PSU's and pass along that info.

Edited July 14, 2010 by rattler

[rattler]

JUst so you know I am not totally out of the loop.

 

VIDIA GeForce GTX 460 becomes everyone's favorite midrange graphics card

By Vlad Savov posted Jul 12th 2010 3:03AM

It's rare to come across a universally lauded product nowadays, but NVIDIA's fresh new GTX 460 is just that sort of exceptional creation. Contrary to its GTX 465 elder brother, the 460 isn't a chopped-down top-tier part and is instead built on the new GF104 core. This smaller core, designed from the start to perform humbler functions, has ameliorated the famed power inefficiency that has been a Fermi signature so far, and has resulted in AnandTech describing the new card as "the $200 king." You'll get 768MB of onboard RAM at that point, but we'd splurge an extra $30 to make that a round gigabyte and enjoy some extra L2 cache and ROPs on the card. Either way, the GTX 460 seems to have completely killed off the market for the 465 and is stepping all over ATI's toes with its competitive pricing and, for once, decent heat and power metrics. Oh, and apparently it "overclocks like a monster" too -:book:

[Sel94]

Awsome thanks.

[EtherealN]

Yes rattler, he needs sound advice. You gave him erroneous information and I corrected it. This implies nothing about being in or out of the loop, I was simply ensuring that minor mistakes didn't go through unnoticed. ;)

 

As for advice on quality PSU's - don't make the mistake of asking for a "good brand". Basically, your absolute minimum should be one complying to the "80+" standard, but preferably "80+ Silver" (like I already indicated). Aside from that, just find one that has the wattage and connectors you need and then read a few reviews to ensure that it's design specs are compliant to reality (IE - don't purchase anything from the company "Ace of Sweden" since they plain lie). I'm personally partial to Corsair and is looking at an HX 80+ Silver unit, but that is way above the needs of Sel.

[rattler]

Yes rattler, he needs sound advice. You gave him erroneous information and I corrected it. This implies nothing about being in or out of the loop, I was simply ensuring that minor mistakes didn't go through unnoticed. ;)

 

As for advice on quality PSU's - don't make the mistake of asking for a "good brand". Basically, your absolute minimum should be one complying to the "80+" standard, but preferably "80+ Silver" (like I already indicated). Aside from that, just find one that has the wattage and connectors you need and then read a few reviews to ensure that it's design specs are compliant to reality (IE - don't purchase anything from the company "Ace of Sweden" since they plain lie). I'm personally partial to Corsair and is looking at an HX 80+ Silver unit, but that is way above the needs of Sel.

 

I think my position was on "good quality"? Min. to look at for today is 550watts. then you look at your system as a whole and see what watts are required to run your components. Quality does not always equal brand name. However as you mention Corsair Although a very good brand name, it also is of high quaility, not prone to spikes and over heating issues etc. This is not always the case. Yes check brand name but quality is the main ingrediant.

 

One does not always go around changing components unless neccesary. Did ATI run hot , bet your ass. Do they now ,probably but are cooler than Nvidia, These companies have been doing battle for a long time and probably will always try to outdo each other so their positions will always change. Nvidia is now coming back and running a much cooler and compact VGA series, which is becoming very popular again. So here we go again, who is best scenerio. Mis-information well with these companies things change back and forth quite often, in the pursuit to be at the top. Should you run a Gpu cooler on GPU's well, I would say yes, unless you have a very good case ventilation system. It never hurts to be safe and protect your investments. GPU's in todays market are being developed to handle sur-round sound, 3D graphics, PC interfacing with blue-ray etc. Not just gaming. Lockon, Fc Fc2 and dcs-bs have not made a big leap that would make previous good quality GPU's , obsolete. Not yet. Some older cards run extremely well with the ED series. It's the next generation using DX10, DX11 that will make the difference along with other things like blue-ray, etc. So was I wrong, well I think that is up for interpretation. I think I gave sound advice or I would not have given it.

 

May I just say that heat in general is an issue. You must protect your system as best you can. From the case, PSU, GPU, motherboard etc. All have to be protected form heat build up. You can have the best components in today's market but if you don't keep them cool, then the life span can be shorter than you would desire. Making an effort to keeping heat down regardless of how you do it is very important and sometimes it takes a mix of items to accomplish this. Even your location in the Wold. I.e. Countries that have high temps. and humidity either Summer or all year round. One could have the coolest GPU on the market or even add a cool running PSU but if heat builds up in the case well, I think we know what heat can do regardless where it comes from. That's my thoughts and leaving it at that. Cheers E. We do agree and disagree but hay that's the fun. The right info comes out and that's the main thing.;):thumbup:

Edited July 14, 2010 by rattler

[Sel94]

Thanks for all the tips guys. Would this be a good PSU? I didn't see any 80+ PSUs while I was looking but I'll probably look more.

And one more thing, where would I find my PCI-e slot?:) I thought it connected to the PSU in the back or something but I don't see any PSUs listed with having those types of slots. Thanks.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Sel94

[Moa]

Your PCI-e slot is on your motherboard.

 

You might need power connectors for cards that run on the PCI-e.

[EtherealN]

Rules of thumb like that for PSU's or any such component is misleading, in my opinion. It ends up inflating expenses since they do not ensure that you purchase components that are in tune with your requirements. You can easily get a very FC2-capable system that drinks 250 watt. Even my system drinks only 350-400 watt while at full load if I keep it at stock.

 

And consider then that we are not guiding an enthusiast here, we are guiding someone that has a very tight budget and limited computer experience. Our "job" then is to help him get good components at a low as possible price point. Why would he get double his wattage needs? Why consider a 200 dollar card when he could get a 100 dollar card that drinks less than 100 watts at load and still run FC2 just fine? Especially since an 80+ 450ish watt PSU would then fit in within the 200 dollar pricetag of just that mentioned "sweet spot" card and still leave money to spare? As you may recall from the thread, even two 100$ purchases seemed to be a potential issue, so then we really need to be counscious of removing ourselves from our own frame of reference and work within the given budget and the actual requirements of the application.

 

My own recommendations stand: cheap ATi (and I did list an nVidia alternative) at the 100 dollar price point along with a cheap but quality PSU around 60-70 dollars.

[EtherealN]

Sel, on PCI-e slots, there's two slots to look out for:

 

1 - the actual PCIe slot. It's on the motherboard (the main piece of cirquitry, it looks like a long plastic lego brick with a ridge inside of it).

2 - the PCIe power connector - it's an either 6 or 8 pin connector on a cable coming out of most PSU's. If I remember your system right I would expect it to not have this. Most cards (but not all) require such a connector to feed it power, since they use more power than the motherboard is able to feed them through the PCIe slot itself. The ones I recommended way earlier in the thread run without such a connector. The cards that use them usually have the connector at the back of the card.

[rattler]

Ok,yes his budget is tight. You are also correct in saying that a less robust GPU would still serve him well with FC2. The one thing that has been pounded into my skull:D, is do not underestimate the PSU. What he is looking for is in the 80 - 90 dollar range for 650w. This is a very good purchase for him. Most tech's will recommend min.550 watts. in today's market not just gaming. The answer that we have to supply is , what graphics card would meet his needs for FC2 with that power supply. E, you have a good handle on recent cards, what card past or present would run FC2 with good quality graphics. I don't think it has to be the most recent card available today. Some of the older still available cards can run just fine with FC2. Nvidia , ATI don't care,:) what card will do the trick. For lockon series. There are some good buys out there on older cards that at the time were the best to be had and can be purchased now for a really good price. If I am wrong correct me.:thumbup:

[rattler]

Thanks for all the tips guys. Would this be a good PSU? I didn't see any 80+ PSUs while I was looking but I'll probably look more.

And one more thing, where would I find my PCI-e slot?:) I thought it connected to the PSU in the back or something but I don't see any PSUs listed with having those types of slots. Thanks.

 

Yes,Sel, this is an 80+ PSU that will meet your needs now and in into the future. Nice .:thumbup:

[Sel94]

Yay! I figured it would be better to get something above what would probably be minimum soon and will be better in the future. Now I just have to get lots of money....donations are welcome:)

 

Bonus Question!- Would having integrated graphics change anything in the process for changing everything? If it's integrated, that would mean it's on my processor...right so I wouldn't have to "replace" a card, only add a new one?

Or something like that?

Don't judge me!

Edited July 15, 2010 by Sel94

[rattler]

Yay! I figured it would be better to get something above what would probably be minimum soon and will be better in the future. Now I just have to get lots of money....donations are welcome:)

 

Bonus Question!- Would having integrated graphics change anything in the process for changing everything? If it's integrated, that would mean it's on my processor...right so I wouldn't have to "replace" a card, only add a new one?

Or something like that?

Don't judge me!

 

Sel, if you have an integrated graphics card this is more than likely a chip on the motherboard that performs your graphics. Today these chips can and do reproduce 2d and 3d graphics but not any where close to what we call a dedicated card(GPU). Some desktops have open slots for a dedicated GPU such as the card you were looking at. Depending on the brand name(computer) these slots could be an AGP and PCIE or AGP and PCI . Your info on the computer should tell you if you have a PCIE slot available. I would have to do some searching but I think you may have to disable the integrated chip in order to use the dedicated card. Don't quote me on that one, as I said I would have to look that up. You can't add and integrated card as I said this is a chip on your motherboard that performs the graphics functon. They say card but that is a little misleading, its a chip on the board that can't be removed. Hope this helps. You may be able to find on the internet if the chip has to be disabled in order to use a dedicated card. Like I said I do think it has to be but am really not sure on that point. Cheers.:)

[Sel94]

Cool thanks.

[rattler]

Cool thanks.

 

Your welcome. Hope we managed to give you the help you needed to make a decision.Cheers.:thumbup:

[Sel94]

Yeah, all of you guys helped a ton. Thank you all so much. If anybody has more info/recommendations, please feel free to tell me.

[EtherealN]

E, you have a good handle on recent cards, what card past or present would run FC2 with good quality graphics. I don't think it has to be the most recent card available today. Some of the older still available cards can run just fine with FC2. Nvidia , ATI don't care,:)

 

Well, main reason I'd recommend a budget version of a newer card rather than a cheap older card is that the price difference is miniscule but the newer ones grant you Dx11. Basically it's a simple futureproofing (for function if not necessarily performance in the multi-year perspective) at a price hike of a few snickers bars.

 

That said, I have not been able to do a proper analysis of the 460 yet since I am currently deployed on a contract. The 465 was a disaster due to the reasons the article you quoted stated, but it was different silicon so it is difficult to infer anything from it's cousin.

 

My advice right now would be either an ATi 5650 or 5750, depending on the price point, with the caveat about the 460 in mind - it is an interesting card but really the only nVidia card that in my opinion is able to possibly compete in the value for dollar sense. The main component in that judgement isn't purchase price though but initial reports of practical wattage, since GPU's are a bit like supercomputers: purchase price is a very minor part of the expense in it's lifetime compared to electricity.

 

For enthusiasts my recommendation would be non-standard chipset 5850's, like the ASUS "TOP" version. But at that point we are entering the premium realm of 300+ dollars, which until now is 100 dollars above what I have ever paid for a GPU with the sole exception of my absolutely awesome GeForce 7800, though that one did cause my PSU to go the way of Chernobyl. :P

[rattler]

Well, main reason I'd recommend a budget version of a newer card rather than a cheap older card is that the price difference is miniscule but the newer ones grant you Dx11. Basically it's a simple futureproofing (for function if not necessarily performance in the multi-year perspective) at a price hike of a few snickers bars.

 

That said, I have not been able to do a proper analysis of the 460 yet since I am currently deployed on a contract. The 465 was a disaster due to the reasons the article you quoted stated, but it was different silicon so it is difficult to infer anything from it's cousin.

 

My advice right now would be either an ATi 5650 or 5750, depending on the price point, with the caveat about the 460 in mind - it is an interesting card but really the only nVidia card that in my opinion is able to possibly compete in the value for dollar sense. The main component in that judgement isn't purchase price though but initial reports of practical wattage, since GPU's are a bit like supercomputers: purchase price is a very minor part of the expense in it's lifetime compared to electricity.

 

For enthusiasts my recommendation would be non-standard chipset 5850's, like the ASUS "TOP" version. But at that point we are entering the premium realm of 300+ dollars, which until now is 100 dollars above what I have ever paid for a GPU with the sole exception of my absolutely awesome GeForce 7800, though that one did cause my PSU to go the way of Chernobyl. :P

 

Yes, E. , that would be the way to go for now for sure. 7800 was I nice card. I am still happy with my 9600 top for a little longer. Hope Nvidia does do something with the 460. Also a fan. But what it always comes down to is what will give you what you need. These two companies go at each other all the time for top spot, which is probably not bad for us.:D. I do believe between all the input, he has enough info to get him on the right track. That is the important thing. I appreciate your info as well because last year a Dr. here damn near killed me. Comma for 62 days and code blue a few times. That kinda put me a little behind in whats on the market. Anyway all is well and I think we managed to give him good info. Cheers pal.:thumbup: