RWR- answer from a real mig-29 pilot how it works

[Suhoj27]

RWR would not detect the launch itself, but is would trigger the missile launch warning when the enemy change from rws/tws to STT and when the signal in STT would cross a treshold regarding the strength (distance parameter).

 

:smartass:

[nscode]

Amalahama:

Read years ago (Back in the 80's, I think. But I am pretty sure.) that F15 and F14 can launch on multiple targets. That was before AIM120 entered service that I read it. Only recently (Couple of years ago.) on Lockon forums did I read that AIM7 can only be launched at one target at a time.

 

And I've sean same claims for Su-27

[GGTharos]

GGTharos; I fully understand that there is little possibility to see this feature in FC, but i really hope that ED or the poeple who will or are working on future projects will have this feature underlined, at least to crosscheck with other sources. I believe that you can get in contact with reliable sources far easier than i can :) and, as i said, it would be something "new" in PC Flight Simulations and would deeper the reality factor even more.

 

Don't worry it will be looked at at minimum :)

 

As i understood the spo-15 rwr and american analogues works on the same principles.

 

Maybe; it is really hard to tell. For example although we have technical documents on F-15E TEWS, it does not describe actual operation in this respect.

 

Another info, a little bit of topic but i think that it can be of interest: After asking the pilot(cca40+ years) regarding the rwr, he alone said that rwr doesn't not work if he turns on the radar (at least in the front hemisphere). Citate; " i can not see on rwr enemy's signals if i turn on the radar"....Now, since there was no more time for additional explanations, is very difficult to judge if this is just a failure of their Migs or this is a "normal" feature of the Mig-29....This info is more difficult to take for garanted, since i read once that mig-29 pilots had no problems in seeing each other in heads on intercepts on rwr....Unfortunately there was no time for further sub-questions and explanations...:(

 

Which country was he from? If it was a MiG-29B (export MiG) then perhaps this makes some sense. F-15 TEWS coordinates radar and RWR and the jammer so that they do not interfere, but it is not completely perfect and there are cases where the RWR will pick up its own aircraft's radar some times. The export MiG may have had such a 'coordination' mechanism removed.

[Suhoj27]

Yes, your explanation seems reasonable....Anyway it was a Hungarian Mig-29

[vanir]

Hungarian Fulcrum would be most likely featuring the Romanian sniper NATO-compatability package, changes the transponder, radio sets, navigational system and RWR iirc.

GG's explanation then sounds very likely.

(edit. I just thought about that, you're prob talking about ex-soviet era spec jobs, nevermind me I don't know what they had)

 

Also it would appear the published claims for multiple target engagements in APG-63/68/etc. are more a figurative expression of data processing ability than routine combat capability? Perhaps it relates to certain methods of ECCM?

 

I know the ancient Smerch radar was notable for ECCM or ECM burn through not only for its signal strength but as described by Russian engineers it piggybacked multiple frequencies in lock mode specifically for enhanced ECCM.

Perhaps this is what is actually being discussed when the multiple target engagement claim is made, it is really inferring multiple frequency transmissions piggybacked in lock mode specifically for the purposes of ECCM, and thus is a measure of how hard a lock is to defeat by a single target rather than how many squadrons each warbird can take out per volley of missiles?

 

Just a thought.

Edited August 15, 2010 by vanir

[GGTharos]

Also it would appear the published claims for multiple target engagements in APG-63/68/etc. are more a figurative expression of data processing ability than routine combat capability? Perhaps it relates to certain methods of ECCM?

 

No, in fact the F-15C has demonstrated multiple target engagement in real combat with AMRAAMs.

 

I know the ancient Smerch radar was notable for ECCM or ECM burn through not only for its signal strength but as described by Russian engineers it piggybacked multiple frequencies in lock mode specifically for enhanced ECCM.

Keep in mind this thing was supposed to face off with the B-70, which never came.

 

Perhaps this is what is actually being discussed when the multiple target engagement claim is made, it is really inferring multiple frequency transmissions piggybacked in lock mode specifically for the purposes of ECCM, and thus is a measure of how hard a lock is to defeat by a single target rather than how many squadrons each warbird can take out per volley of missiles?

 

Just a thought.

No, when they say 'multiple target engagement', they usually mean shooting at many targets simultaneously.

When they say 'multiple missiles' they may mean multiple missiles at a single target, which indicates something about multiple M-links or whatnot.

[IvanK]

I suggest for AIM7 launch in TWS the following would occur. Radar would transition to STT on the highest priority target, In the Hornet this target was known (for very good reason) as the "Launch and Steering Target" or L&S target. Once in STT The AIM7 would be on its way.

 

Not an issue obviously for Aim120 where multiple launches are easy with no requirement for STT.

Edited August 15, 2010 by IvanK

[GGTharos]

Automation rocks :D

[Vekkinho]

Im a bit confused now. Would the mig-29 rwr detect a launch and sound the launch warning or would the launch tone automatically sound when you get to a certain range? is the mig-29/su-27 rwr accurate in lock on?

 

Lock On and FC SPO is wishful thinking!

 

I mean, real SPO-15 is waaaay less faithful and reliable.

 

If you're having a single jammer nearby, no matter friendly or foe you'd be getting a ghost contacts in bearing/strenght LEDs in SPO!

 

GGT mentioned a possibility of interference with RWR sensirs and on-board radar. So here's the fact from Ex-Yugoslav MiG-29 conversion training in 127 LAE. RWR trainings were performed with 2 twoseat Fulcrums (radarless UBs) so after meeting with a NATO fighters in '99 Yugoslav MiG pilots reported constant RWR/radar failures on their 9-12 airframes which in fact might lead to conclusion that the two jam eachother when in use at the same time.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Vekkinho

[Vekkinho]

Which country was he from? If it was a MiG-29B (export MiG) then perhaps this makes some sense. F-15 TEWS coordinates radar and RWR and the jammer so that they do not interfere, but it is not completely perfect and there are cases where the RWR will pick up its own aircraft's radar some times. The export MiG may have had such a 'coordination' mechanism removed.

 

Probably a Hungarian pilot if hosting airshow spectators to a HuAF MiG-29UB cockpit.

 

Now, entire export/import MiG-29A/B/B2 difference is more of a myth than a fact. First Fulcrums exposed to a western analysts were East German DDR and those birds were considered very undermourished even for early '80 standards that led to assumption that Russkies probably didn't throw their pearls around during USSR days, keeping for theirselves! However, Moldovan Fulcums were the integral part of VVS & PVO - USSR and after reviewing those airframes in '97 under Nunn-Lugar Cooperative threat reduction programe there was nothing mystical about them and no major difference greater than paintwork.

 

The only difference in "export" and USSR airframes was the AB stages reduction (from 3 stage to 2) with some "export" MiGs. This was done not by provider but by end users to give a greater TBO of RD-33s, if you had a bad engine in the '80s you could do nothing about it...

Edited August 15, 2010 by Vekkinho

[Kenan]

^^I think we should give ED some slack. They did introduce lots of improvements in FC2. Maybe they just don't have enough time and resources to work on FC2 ie. they prolly shifted their focus on the DCS titles which is pretty understandable. What we already have in FC2 is a lot more then we had in FC1, minus the crappy gun/tracer effects.. ( :D )

[nscode]

So here's the fact from Ex-Yugoslav MiG-29 conversion training in 127 LAE. RWR trainings were performed with 2 twoseat Fulcrums (radarless UBs) so after meeting with a NATO fighters in '99 Yugoslav MiG pilots reported constant RWR/radar failures on their 9-12 airframes which in fact might lead to conclusion that the two jam eachother when in use at the same time.

 

It's not like they turned on the radar and RWR together for the first time in '99. And while radar might give false indication (but I doubt it does... maybe on way older RWR), there's no way that it will introduce a RWR failure!