The F-15 and MP gameplay

[Sov13t]

It's fine the way it is, because we all know nothing will be done about it. Patches/updates for this game are few and far between. Multiplayer community support is lacking and left completely for server admins/players. This isn't IL-2 or other games where if something is discovered and confirmed by numerous bug reports and testers is fixed overnight (or at least in a month period).

 

This is something we have to accept as multiplayer users of Eagle products, and that is why "it is fine the way it is" at least until the next product comes out, whenever that might be.

 

NOTE: I am not speaking about any F-15/27/29/25/10 features, just in general.

[ФрогФут]

Good testing by the way.

As far as i know, F-15 in release differs from the one in the patch.;)

And why is all that to me?:D I'm a totally mig boy.

[Frostie]

-thridly, there is no evidence that F-15's are getting better results online. They may rack up kills fast but the kill ratio of 99% of people is close to 1:1 anyway. What the stats are showing is that few people are getting away with impunity and need to adjust tactics t the new reality for better results. I have seen many many people switch to F-15's only to see them getting same results as they had with the mig.

The claims that F-15 is somehow being superior online seriously lacks evidence.

 

Getting good results form F-15 requires every bit of skill as the other planes require. You may want to use superior weapons at will but without propper tactics you will not enjoy better results.

In a style of play which only requires the pilot to rack up kills online, the F-15 excels at this over anything, the choice to approach at altitude with TWS fired AMRAAM's then escape with speed unmatched by any other makes the F-15 untouchable.

 

The problem comes when the F-15 pilot grows a pair and gets closer to the encounter and chances being locked and fired on, this balances everthing out because the F-15's escape buffer is lost.

This can only happen if the F-15 pilot gets target fixated or ballsy.

 

Of course the other scenario where this reduces the F-15's superiority is if he has a realistic role to play such as protecting and holding an area, suddenly he can't use his shoot from altitude and range then run for safety because he is not doing his job of protecting his sides assets and winning the war.

 

So those that are upset about the F-15's advantages are really only miffed because they are trying to rack up kills in an environment suited for airquake where the F-15 will be king and catching it out in that type of scenario will always be the trick.

 

Does it matter, to me I enjoy the challenge.

The jammer situation is sad and something that FC can't address which is a shame because this would play a huge part in the BVR engagement.

 

Whats also a shame is trying to make a 24/7 server more role play rather than airquake, its not an easy task but a lot of ideas are being discussed here which is great, hopefully thanks to the great thinkers in the community we can have some epic scenarios online in the future.

[PoleCat]

Grow a pair sounds about right to me. Pretty clear that most people who have voted agree with that choice.

 

Almost did not vote in this one as terms like "Whiners" and F-15 Fanboys" etc, really put me off. Childish nonsense. Not productive at all and does nothing to further rational discussion on the topic.

 

Out

Edited August 23, 2010 by PoleCat

[RIPTIDE]

Pilotasso, MiG drivers don't know, that we have not a silent kill on HOJ anymore. ;)

shhhh. Don't tell them!!! :megalol::thumbup:

 

On topic. I notice there has been 5 votes that said "The F-15 shouldn't be online". Shameful.

[RIPTIDE]

People vote. So far most agree "Its fine the way it is, people need to grow a pair and adapt". So it seems most don't think F-15 has been uber upgraded and don't think it is unfair.

True... but I'd like to point out that if I include option one in with the last option it is about 60/40.. 40 representing the other options. Also, there is the other half of the forum which probably never saw this poll. So, for discussion purposes, its far from a consensus unfortunately. :cry:

[Pilotasso]

Its not a question of being fair or not. For that play HAWX and hey, theres a sequel coming up! :D

[Mustang]

Your tactics and Mustang is fly on 12-15 rm and lunch AIM-120 from 50 km in TWS! Then back home. Thats why i think in game 15 sec, not 3.

 

Oh nice move, i like the way my name has been dragged into this (not) :huh:

 

You do realise that i'm not the only one who flies above 40000 and shoots in TWS, why use me as an example? :doh:

 

I can name a few of your russian friends who fly the 15 much more aggressively at high alt, but i won't.

 

Infact, when i've flown recently (which hasn't been much) i've been in a 29S lurking low, ECM on and seeking out prey with 77's and ET's :)

Edited August 23, 2010 by Mustang

[Steel Jaw]

Well people firing off a bunch of mad dogs in rapidfire should be kicked off the server. Or have rearming on the ground disabled.

 

That "tactic" is not realistic.

[Krippz]

Well people firing off a bunch of mad dogs in rapidfire should be kicked off the server. Or have rearming on the ground disabled.

 

That "tactic" is not realistic.

 

Well you I don't think it's good etiquette to kick people because they aren't flying the way you want them to fly. If a guy mad dogs and his missles are splashing friendlies then that is a diffrent story.

 

P.S.

 

I also don't think it's good etiquette to mad dog in salvos :D

[RIPTIDE]

Few people dare to do it and most have 1:1 kill ratios.

 

I challenge you to get the data supporting your claims and please avoid 1.12 stats as it only reflects maddog fests.

lolol. You know that no popular server has stats for FC2.0 yet except the RAF gunzo one.. Since you said avoid 1.12 stats, you yourself recently pointed to the 51st 1.12 stats to try to prove this point...

 

As someone who flies all airframes regularly online I can tell you that it is far easier in the F-15C with the AIM-120C, with very limited skill, non rigourous training and rudimentary, at best, Comms to score hits. Every day. All day. I only have my own stats to know this.

 

You're taking an unusual line of argument with this.

[Steel Jaw]

Well you I don't think it's good etiquette to kick people because they aren't flying the way you want them to fly.

 

Anybody treating this as "air quake" and using some kinda fantasy tactics ought to be kicked.

[Pilotasso]

In a style of play which only requires the pilot to rack up kills online, the F-15 excels at this over anything, the choice to approach at altitude with TWS fired AMRAAM's then escape with speed unmatched by any other makes the F-15 untouchable.

 

The problem comes when the F-15 pilot grows a pair and gets closer to the encounter and chances being locked and fired on, this balances everthing out because the F-15's escape buffer is lost.

This can only happen if the F-15 pilot gets target fixated or ballsy.

 

Of course the other scenario where this reduces the F-15's superiority is if he has a realistic role to play such as protecting and holding an area, suddenly he can't use his shoot from altitude and range then run for safety because he is not doing his job of protecting his sides assets and winning the war.

 

So those that are upset about the F-15's advantages are really only miffed because they are trying to rack up kills in an environment suited for airquake where the F-15 will be king and catching it out in that type of scenario will always be the trick.

 

Does it matter, to me I enjoy the challenge.

The jammer situation is sad and something that FC can't address which is a shame because this would play a huge part in the BVR engagement.

 

Whats also a shame is trying to make a 24/7 server more role play rather than airquake, its not an easy task but a lot of ideas are being discussed here which is great, hopefully thanks to the great thinkers in the community we can have some epic scenarios online in the future.

 

Deleted my previous repply to this because after reading a third time I decrypted what your saying here and I think it applies to all other aircraft as well. The problem of not staying and accomplish a mission like a CAP position is a symtpom of all players, not just F-15's. I think your kidding yourself. The first thing that Mig and Su's do when they get active missile warning is to turn tail and run home. Common practice and not an F-15 virus that transmitts once you sit in its cockpit.

 

One thing that I worte on my previous deleted message was that you need to get some fact straight regarding peoples strategies and plane kill ratios. Very few above 1:1 and you can find any plane in those places. F-15 is mastered by very few now that its required to hanlde the radar and support the shots, not just maddog at BVR which mostly doesnt work anymore.

[Pilotasso]

lolol. You know that no popular server has stats for FC2.0 yet except the RAF gunzo one.. Since you said avoid 1.12 stats, you yourself recently pointed to the 51st 1.12 stats to try to prove this point...

 

 

 

you got it wrong twice.

 

1-RAF stats are for normal online full missions.

 

2-1.12 stats I mentioned was to show the wors possible scenario and even then it didnt reflect the theories of conspiracy people were throwing into the air that F-15 was any better than the other aircraft which by the way could do the same.

[Frostie]

Deleted my previous repply to this because after reading a third time I decrypted what your saying here and I think it applies to all other aircraft as well. The problem of not staying and accomplish a mission like a CAP position is a symtpom of all players, not just F-15's. I think your kidding yourself. The first thing that Mig and Su's do when they get active missile warning is to turn tail and run home. Common practice and not an F-15 virus that transmitts once you sit in its cockpit.

 

One thing that I worte on my previous deleted message was that you need to get some fact straight regarding peoples strategies and plane kill ratios. Very few above 1:1 and you can find any plane in those places. F-15 is mastered by very few now that its required to hanlde the radar and support the shots, not just maddog at BVR which mostly doesnt work anymore.

To me and many it seems common sense that to engage a target from range without giving them a warning is going to get you better results than giving someone a warning from range. In both cases lets say that these aircraft are escaping before they get into a dangerous situation, Mig 29 and F-15 (it would be extremely difficult to score a hit and not put yourself in harms way while firing SARH).

The benefit of ARH is even before pitbull when the lock has been dropped they still present a threat from reaquiring a pressing target.

 

When you give someone a warning they are more likely to be engaging you or extending, but when your not giving a warning (TWS) that aircraft is more likely to press your position without fear, call it lack of experience, overexuberance or just careless.

 

The point I made is that F-15's die when they don't follow the procedure of staying safe, while Russian planes facing TWS don't have this luxury option to choose so always run a much greater risk of falling into a DZ.

In an airquake scenario where all that matters to that F-15 pilot is racking up his score then thats all he has to do, any aircraft without TWS is going to struggle to hit anything using this tactic.

 

The first thing that Mig and Su's do when they get active missile warning is to turn tail and run home

When these planes get an active warning that means the missile is suddenly on top of them.

What do you expect them to do fly into it?

[Pilotasso]

To me and many it seems common sense that to engage a target from range without giving them a warning is going to get you better results than giving someone a warning from range. In both cases lets say that these aircraft are escaping before they get into a dangerous situation, Mig 29 and F-15 (it would be extremely difficult to score a hit and not put yourself in harms way while firing SARH).

The benefit of ARH is even before pitbull when the lock has been dropped they still present a threat from reaquiring a pressing target.

 

When you give someone a warning they are more likely to be engaging you or extending, but when your not giving a warning (TWS) that aircraft is more likely to press your position without fear, call it lack of experience, overexuberance or just careless.

 

The point I made is that F-15's die when they don't follow the procedure of staying safe, while Russian planes facing TWS don't have this luxury option to choose so always run a much greater risk of falling into a DZ.

In an airquake scenario where all that matters to that F-15 pilot is racking up his score then thats all he has to do, any aircraft without TWS is going to struggle to hit anything using this tactic.

 

It makes sense what your said however there is no Su/mig armaggedon going online. The F-15 is hard to manage and hard to master. You try shooting someone at 20 miles down in the weeds from 50000 feet. LOTS OF WORK!!! ;)

People have not adjusted yet, and by no means sure no noobs will rack up kills as you say, not before they are shot down soon too.

 

 

When these planes get an active warning that means the missile is suddenly on top of them.

What do you expect them to do fly into it?

 

kinda makes my point doesnt it? ;)

[GGTharos]

At First It was F-15 having better turning-rate then Su-27, Pilotasso and GG had evidence even for that discrepancy, whit claims that its totaly realistic. Trying to explain the power of the engines to me :) Good testing by the way.

 

That is not exactly what was said; we later found out we missed testing the low end of the envelope - that's an egg in our faces, but stuff happens. We tested a lot of other things in the process, one thing out of a whole lot of many to miss, eh. Someone picked it up, raised the alarm, we checked it out, it got fixed. Get over it. :)

 

 

What i suspect is that the F-15 fanboys had way to big influence, Changing the jammer range or increase the jammer to 15 sec cool down is pure F-15 advantage,

 

Not really, it wasn't all our idea.

 

Funny thing is that there is no evidence still that Su-27 jammer would give this opportunity to F-15, still they are implemented. Taking only F-15 TWS in account forgetting how Su-27 get effected in this jamming scenario is pure nonsense.

 

Actually SPJs should not be affecting TWS on either aircraft, since they typicalyl only respond to STT threats.

[Pilotasso]

Just want to add: There is no F-15 pwnage online. But if it did, so be it. We aim for realism not balance.

 

EDIT: Reasons why the F-15 has not achieved this ingame has got to do:

 

1-with the fact there are few who master it.

2-also because its missing some automated features along with radar modes not simulated and broken ECCM.

3-The simulated Su-27 ans Mig miodels are all old and surpassed variants, as are the simulated SARH missiles.

 

Could F-15 ever rule in lockon FC2? Yes, but not before lots of people spend their time training hard and use proper tactics. knowing how people been playing so far, its not going to happen any time soon.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Pilotasso

[GGTharos]

In a style of play which only requires the pilot to rack up kills online, the F-15 excels at this over anything, the choice to approach at altitude with TWS fired AMRAAM's then escape with speed unmatched by any other makes the F-15 untouchable.

 

Which is the RL situation (or I should say, the ideal RL situation) according to certain people who do this job, but with less 'airquaking'.

 

Of course the other scenario where this reduces the F-15's superiority is if he has a realistic role to play such as protecting and holding an area, suddenly he can't use his shoot from altitude and range then run for safety because he is not doing his job of protecting his sides assets and winning the war.

 

Depends on the scenario. You can still deploy the F-15 in an advantageous manner under those circumstances; if you cannot the scenario is essentially rigged to deny the F-15's most successful envelope IMHO, but that's not a huge deal. We do these in the 44th often enough.

 

So those that are upset about the F-15's advantages are really only miffed because they are trying to rack up kills in an environment suited for airquake where the F-15 will be king and catching it out in that type of scenario will always be the trick.

 

I sort of agree with that, but there are other issues also that could have been fixed (or rather, that I would have liked to see fixed, but could not be), which would have been both good and bad for <plane of your choice here>.

 

Does it matter, to me I enjoy the challenge.

The jammer situation is sad and something that FC can't address which is a shame because this would play a huge part in the BVR engagement.

 

This is one of those things that could not be fixed. The ideal situation for simulation would have been a jammer that attempts to jam a threat (ie. STT) individually, with a limitation of jammed threats per sector; some jammers have wider azimuth and threat number capability than others, never mind techniques (Which we only have a little data on).

[RIPTIDE]

you got it wrong twice.

 

1-RAF stats are for normal online full missions.

 

2-1.12 stats I mentioned was to show the wors possible scenario and even then it didnt reflect the theories of conspiracy people were throwing into the air that F-15 was any better than the other aircraft which by the way could do the same.

 

1- Read what I said. RAF does not apply.

 

2- I know what you said and I know what you meant.

 

My point stands, it is far easier for someone with limited skill, on lone wolf, to score hits with F-15C. I'm not complaining BTW, I fly it! :)

[Frostie]

It makes sense what your said however there is no Su/mig armaggedon going online. The F-15 is hard to manage and hard to master. You try shooting someone at 20 miles down in the weeds from 50000 feet. LOTS OF WORK!!! ;)

I'd say you were too high to engage someone so low, Mr.Pythagoras can help you on that ;), you don't have to kill everyone and if your too worried about dropping into contrails then you should extend and make a lower approach on that guy to rebuild your SA.

[Pilotasso]

I'd say you were too high to engage someone so low, Mr.Pythagoras can help you on that ;), you don't have to kill everyone and if your too worried about dropping into contrails then you should extend and make a lower approach on that guy to rebuild your SA.

 

Its also hard on the missiles sensors. Again it makes sense what you said however I got other reasons to choose that steep angle. ;)

[Pilotasso]

1- Read what I said. RAF does not apply.

 

2- I know what you said and I know what you meant.

 

My point stands, it is far easier for someone with limited skill, on lone wolf, to score hits with F-15C. I'm not complaining BTW, I fly it! :)

 

 

1-Why doent it apply? theres a stats system for online full missions mounted on RAF server, not just guns. because it has bugs? well, tell me which stats system didnt. :)

 

2-well then you should tell what that secret meaning is then.

 

Lastly I think your just being the devils advocate here. CONFESS IT! :D You know your not a lone wolf by defienition because you happen to fly F-15, neither you alone mirror the rest of the community flying F-15's.

[RIPTIDE]

1-Why doent it apply? theres a stats system for online full missions mounted on RAF server, not just guns. because it has bugs? well, tell me which stats system didnt. :)

 

2-well then you should tell what that secret meaning is then.

 

Lastly I think your just being the devils advocate here. CONFESS IT! :D You know your not a lone wolf by defienition because you happen to fly F-15, neither you alone mirror the rest of the community flying F-15's.

There are very few popular servers that attract from a whole range of people. RAF does not apply. I did not see a single F-15 been used on their recent stats page for today. You know what I mean. I try to be diplomatic. :D

 

No devils advocate here... I'm an angel. :megalol:

[Teknetinium]

Just want to add: There is no F-15 pwnage online. But if it did, so be it. We aim for realism not balance.

 

 

LOL.where did you get that info, No F-15 has entered airspace where there is Su-27s comrade, Only Mig-29A/ MIG-25 downgraded versions,

 

 

 

FC2 did trow the F-15 in to total advantage in BVR, It should have the advantage and did have in 1.12. But not by this means there is not enough proof about jammer to give the F-15 that big advantage. It realy should stay the same 25km so F-15 and Su-27 pilots had to think more rathere then they way its now.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Teknetinium