Central position trimmer problem

[Bucic]

Should it work like that at all?! :huh: I unplugged rudder pedals just to be sure and used 'T' on my keyboard to avoid false traces during troubleshooting. Could anyone take a look? I've also posted a track with 1.0.1 trimmer implementation (old) and it goes crazy too. In both cases there is no 'trimmer waiting'. With central trimmer it does not wait for me to go back with my controls to central position and with the old implementation it doesn't wait 1 or even 0.5 s letting me go back to neutrals. In both cases my controls positions are being immediately added to the trimmed position.

trim-center_problem.trk

trim-center_problem_2.trk

trim-center_problem_3_101trimmer.trk

Edited September 28, 2010 by Bucic

[Slayer]

Did you try to increase the time? I watched your tracks and it doesnt appear the joystick is spiking or anything weird that would prevent it from registering the center position.

 

Q: For non-FF sticks, is it possible to increase the time provided to neutralize the joystick after trimming the helicopter (i.e. the time between releasing the trim button and the trim setting taking effect)?

A: Yes. Open the following file: \...\Scripts\Aircrafts\Ka-50\FMOptions.lua. Look for the following line: “TrimmerTauInverse”. The lower this number, the longer the trim setting delay. Warning! Altering this value will likely result in a failure to reproduce track recordings accurately when they include a player-controlled helicopter.

[Bucic]

Did you try to increase the time? I watched your tracks and it doesnt appear the joystick is spiking or anything weird that would prevent it from registering the center position.

 

Q: For non-FF sticks, is it possible to increase the time provided to neutralize the joystick after trimming the helicopter (i.e. the time between releasing the trim button and the trim setting taking effect)?

A: Yes. Open the following file: \...\Scripts\Aircrafts\Ka-50\FMOptions.lua. Look for the following line: “TrimmerTauInverse”. The lower this number, the longer the trim setting delay. Warning! Altering this value will likely result in a failure to reproduce track recordings accurately when they include a player-controlled helicopter.

Thanks for your reply but I don't think it's the problem. The problem is that both trimmer implementations are broken for me on stock settings. And for old trimmer the time is not 'too short'. It's zero. Please focus on the central position trimmer implementation because that is the one I'd use. I only provided the track with old trimmer to show than something is seriously messed up on my side (?).

[slug88]

Do you have ForcefeedbackEnabled=true in your Producer.cfg file? If so, try setting it to false. Also, do you have any force feedback devices connected to your PC?

[Bucic]

Do you have ForcefeedbackEnabled=true in your Producer.cfg file? If so, try setting it to false. Also, do you have any force feedback devices connected to your PC?

ForceFeedbackEnabled = false;

 

No FFB devices were ever connected to my machine.

[Frederf]

It sounds like you are hitting the "center window" immediately upon trimming instead of once the controls are relaxed near the center position. The window size is user-editable and plenty of people increase especially the size of the rudder window to more easily hit it to regain control after trimming.

 

Let me see if I can find what file controls it.

 

This thread contains some possible checks for corrupt or otherwise miss-set files: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=52781

Ah here it is, Scripts\Aircrafts\_Common\FMOoptions.lua

and adjust these settings as they are most comfortable to you:

 

HelicopterTrimmerZonePitch = 0.05 (5% in pitch)

HelicopterTrimmerZoneRoll = 0.05 (5% in roll)

HelicopterTrimmerZoneRudder = 0.1 (10% in yaw)

Edited September 28, 2010 by Frederf

[Bucic]

It sounds like you are hitting the "center window" immediately upon trimming instead of once the controls are relaxed near the center position. The window size is user-editable and plenty of people increase especially the size of the rudder window to more easily hit it to regain control after trimming.

 

Let me see if I can find what file controls it.

That's what I thought initially but then I tested the broken trimmer on 50+ % cyclic deflection and you can see it on the tracks.

[Bucic]

I guess I'll have to undertake some drastic troubleshooting procedure. First I'll try to unplug my rudder pedals (made of Logitech joy electronics). Then restoring all the controls menu defaults (deleting lua's) and then... DCS reinstallation :(

 

Edit:

I think you've nailed it again, Slayer! Thank you!

 

I was so desperate to try everything before re-installation that I looked in the \scripts\aircrafts\ka-50\fmoptions.lua file and guess what. It was missing the TrimmerTauInverse line! I've pasted it from my backup folder (thank youi ModMan?) and the Center position trimmer (new) started to work correctly (locking any inputs until I go back to neutrum with my joystick and pedals). The old trim implementation is still broken for me. It's good I'm not going to use it.

 

I'm curious though \Scripts\Aircrafts\_Common\fmoptions.lua contains the zones or new trimmer AND the tau line and there's the other fmoptions.lua file \scripts\aircrafts\ka-50\fmoptions.lua. It's about time ED release a proper documentation...

 

I have never edited any of *fmoptions* files so I don't know how it got corrupted.

 

 

Edit:

I'm not sure if it wasn't a placebo :( I still get a bump on trim release. Please check out another track.

trim-center_problem_BUMP.trk

Edited September 29, 2010 by Bucic

[Bucic]

I have big favor to ask! Can anyone post a track showing at least a single use of central position trimmer done in stable turn that required at least ~20% of joystick deflection in any way? Maybe the small bump I keep getting is just a common thing everyone's getting and I'm just too picky?

[159th_Viper]

Here's a track of me fooling around. Apologies if I misunderstood and failed to demonstrate the behaviour you seek.

 

Central position trimmer employed whilst throwing her about a wee bit. Any 'bumps' are mainly as a result of me being ham-fisted whilst using the keyboard for trim and not having flown the kamov in months.....:D

 

 

[ATTACH]42725[/ATTACH]

[Bucic]

Thanks a lot Viper! I will watch the track.

 

I thought so - you don't get any input bump after each trim :(

I get a bump every time I trim in the direction my controls are moved to. Note that the bump is not mirrored in the controls position indicator Rctrl+ENTER! Anyone can check it out by playing one of my tracks with 'bump' in the filename.

 

I've already tried resetting all the controls profiles to defaults, unplugging my pedals and plugging only my stick with a default configuration. All fresh. It didn't help. I'm preparing for clean game re-installation. Please take a few minutes to try to help me out.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Bucic

[159th_Viper]

I thought so - you don't get any input bump after each trim :(

 

Would that not then mean that your install is fine?

[Bucic]

Would that not then mean that your install is fine?

Maybe I'm slow here but... I did all troubleshooting I could think off and I still get bumps everytime I trim. What else could I possibly do?

[159th_Viper]

Maybe I'm slow here but... I did all troubleshooting I could think off and I still get bumps everytime I trim. What else could I possibly do?

 

The way i see it is that the track is just a reflection of my input on your install. If there was an issue with your install it would have given my track a 'bump' with every trim input too.

 

That said - it will then have to be hardware-related, specifically your Flight-Stick. Are your axis inputs all at default?

[Bucic]

The way i see it is that the track is just a reflection of my input on your install. If there was an issue with your install it would have given my track a 'bump' with every trim input too.

 

That said - it will then have to be hardware-related, specifically your Flight-Stick. Are your axis inputs all at default?

Hah, I didn't think of that!

Yes, I used the procedure to restore default control settings (deleting all luas except default*). No curvatures etc were set after that. I use X52 Pro.

[159th_Viper]

I don't suppose it's possible to get your hands on another Flight-Stick in order to eliminate possible equipment issues?

 

I feel your pain, M8.....In my quest for perfection insofar as Flight-sticks are concerned, Saiteks really pi$$ed on my battery. Not saying that that is the case in the present circumstances mind you. Alas, i digress.....As said - with your Inputs at linear/no DZ etc etc it would replicate my settings. The only deviation would then be hardware.

[Bucic]

But how can it be hardware? I use full-screen joy diagnostic utility DIView to take a close look. For it to be hardware I would have to see some anomalies in X or Y signal when pressing the keyboard T key. Or any key on anything connected to my computer for that matter. But nothing similar happens. Also the fact that at the moment of my bumps there's absolutely no movement on the controls indicator (in-game) and we both know it shows the shark's controls positions i.e. shark shakes without in-game controls moving by a milliliter!

 

Edit:

OK, a moment of truth, I got an good old friend of mine to help me out - Saitek AV8R-01 :)

Edited September 29, 2010 by Bucic

[Slayer]

Bucic Have you tried holding down the trim a little bit longer?

 

I remember another thread where the guy was releasing trim too fast and it was causing a similar issue to what you describe.

 

Also do you manouver with the trim button held down or do you trim-move-trim-move. I find holding the trim button down then releasing it after you have it set where you want to be a much better method(for me anyways)

[Bucic]

First report:

I tried with Aviator. The roll channel seems fine but the pitch goes haywire. But I tried it on my BS restored from a zip backup. I'll try a clean install now. I prefer to not play at all rather than be left wondering.

 

Bucic Have you tried holding down the trim a little bit longer?

 

I remember another thread where the guy was releasing trim too fast and it was causing a similar issue to what you describe.

 

Also do you manouver with the trim button held down or do you trim-move-trim-move. I find holding the trim button down then releasing it after you have it set where you want to be a much better method(for me anyways)

Please don't take it the wrong way but I use trim as intended - short press that is. Sure you can hold it down sometimes when needed but this is not a solution to my problem. Please bear with me guys. I'm going to report in 10 minutes or so.

[Bucic]

Aviator test:

Same behavior!

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?j2njwvjb2skuty0

 

Do you want me to record a video?

[Slayer]

Please make a video. It would be nice to see the problem from your perspective.

[Bucic]

I'm on it. Don't laught, I was really surprised that track file is not 100% portable and identical between computers. I forgot how track files work. OK, uploading to YouTube...

 

HD vid ready! Recorded using built-in RECORD AVI feature.

 

Edited November 25, 2010 by Bucic

[Nate--IRL--]

Quick comment - To use the Trimmer without the Flight Director on requires you to press the trim, manoeuvre to the pitch and attitude you want to maintain and only then release the trim.

 

If you fail to do this (and do it very often) you will see uncommanded pitch and roll inputs as the autopilot authority is reset (ie stick position + 20%). This 20% reset is what you are seeing, and it will not show in the Ctrl-Enter indicator as it is the autopilot entering this input. The Trim is not intended to be used as a quick stab and release due to the coupling of the autopilot and the cyclic centre position reset.

 

This is why I prefer to fly with the Flight Director on if I have any sort of manoeuvring to do. The Flight Director will allow you to use quick stab trimming if you like, as the autopilot is disconnected.

 

Nate

Edited September 30, 2010 by Nate--IRL--

[Bucic]

Quick comment - To use the Trimmer without the Flight Director on requires you to press the trim, manoeuvre to the pitch and attitude you want to maintain and only then release the trim.

 

If you fail to do this (and do it very often) you will see uncommanded pitch and roll inputs as the autopilot authority is reset (ie stick position + 20%). This 20% reset is what you are seeing, and it will not show in the Ctrl-Enter indicator as it is the autopilot entering this input. The Trim is not intended to be used as a quick stab and release due to the coupling of the autopilot and the cyclic centre position reset.

 

This is why I prefer to fly with the Flight Director on if I have any sort of manoeuvring to do. The Flight Director will allow you to use quick stab trimming if you like, as the autopilot is disconnected.

 

Nate

Valuable info but did Viper use quick presses-releases? Yes. Did he use FD? No, AFAIK. And after hi hit his trim (without holding down he didn't get any unintentional inputs. This is what bugs me.

 

From another topic

And Trim like the Kamov Pilots are instructed to, ie Control Input and then Trim and not Press Trimmer/Adjust Attitude/Release and see if that renders satisfactory results.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Bucic

[Bucic]

Haven't we already established that the bump is autopilot induced (no aircraft controls movement on controls indicator) so it should be submitted as a bug report for dev team?