Kuznetsov Carrier Ops SU-33 3 Ship Fightersweep

[EtherealN]

It's totally useless to fly with real tactics against people that fight like there is no tomorrow.

 

Then they aren't doing it right. :P

People who know and use "real tactics" generally slaughter air-quakers. It does take some practice though. :)

 

And while the below wasn't meant for me, I find it humorous to answer it anyway:

 

I guess you have a long briefing before every flight...

 

Check.

 

And some training excersises to get us ready for the real mission.

 

Check.

 

I guess 1 week preparation is enough.

 

All flying ever done before the mission is the "preparation".

 

Real combat pilots don't practice for each specific mission. They prepare for a mission through the briefings. Training is done continually even after finishing your MQT programme, and the pilot is continually evaluated throughout his career and all training programs he takes part in to ensure that his skills aren't deprecating.

 

And yup, some people do actually fly very much like that even with FC2. That doesn't strictly mean that everyone who doesn't are noobs or "doing it wrong", but there's a lot of people that you definitely do not want to meet on a server if you fly like that. The best you'll achieve with tactics like this is something like 60 seconds more of life, or possibly causing your opponent to have to launch another missile.

 

But against AirQuake players, sure, that works and if it's fun, enjoy it. Not my own cup of tea, though, especially since other types of flying works even better in my own opinion and experience. And of course - what "works" depends a lot on your mission. Your objective as a fighter pilot is not strictly to "kill enemy planes". Sometimes this is directly necessary to fullfill your job, and then you do it, but you are always nothing more than a cog in the machine with a very specific job to do. For example, it might be desirable to just let some guy waste his missiles and force him to head home - because your mission is to keep the AWACS safe, or just deny the airspace above a front line, or whatever.

 

That said, I need everyone here to please ensure that you keep your manners. Everyone has different tastes in how they enjoy this hobby, and this needs to be respected. Criticism must also be understood to not be an insult. Thankyou.

Edited December 20, 2010 by EtherealN

[asparagin]

I was just referring to waiting for DCS fighter to fly more realistic, whic isn't going to change anything IMHO, people are still gonna do what they do now in FC2. Although it may change a tad bit, from what I see from BS pilots. Some people just don't have the time and patience to learn how to really fly.

 

 

It changes thing A LOT. How many sane people you know that would spend months of learning to operate a complex platform like DCS, then go online, spend 15 min to start the plane, only to do the barrel roll? Come on.

[winchesterdelta1]

Your right Etherealn... It was ment sarcastic. Just to see if they liked sarcastic comments. I would like to fly realisticly everyday.. But i simply have no time to do that. And when i fly realisticly my choice isn't LOMAC.... well sometimes it is when i find some nice people.

[EtherealN]

Asparagin, there are the "game" modes, so those who prefer that type of play will still be able to partake - though obviously they might not be able to do so on the same servers as the study-simmers use.

 

Winchester, sarcasm is unfortunately often very difficult to transmit and identify through text. I usually try to avoid it's use except in cases where it can be made very obvious that it is indeed sarcasm. :P

 

I do not agree that one has to spend a lot extra time to "fly realistically" though. Just go through callsigns, sort lists, establish a bullseye reference and dictate lost-wingman proceedure while starting up/taxiing and you're set. But that's just my own opinion.

[Grimes]

It changes thing A LOT. How many sane people you know that would spend months of learning to operate a complex platform like DCS, then go online, spend 15 min to start the plane, only to do the barrel roll? Come on.

 

Starfox.

[Kuky]

Look, sorry if I insult, yes I do have sarcasm sometimes, it's just the closest way to express my thought and opinion.

 

I had no idea where you come from and I did not assume you are American, and I am not going to be nicer if I know you are Dutch :)

 

Serisouly now... sorry again if I insulted but fact is use of propper tactics does work if done right, and by this I don't just mean how to avoid missiles, in fact not having to avoid any missiles like that is what you should be aiming for, in another words get yourself into firing position where enemy cannot reach you and also has no way to escape. Things change with large® numbers in servers especially as once people die they spawn back in rather quickly and the guy you've taken out (or someone else has taken him out) becomes part of the problem again.

 

Also don't ask me how to tell you how I fly and what tactcs I use as I don't really like to share those with people I don't normally fly with. I don't get things right all the time I get my ass spanked (figuratively speaking ;)) every now and then also... like yesterday where I got shot down 3 times and only managed to kill 2 enemy, and this was part of realistic scenario as every time 2 "of" us were against 3 of "them" sometimes more and the enemy had missiles with longer reach so unless we could get in close within 15km or so we did not stand much chance, but once we did (needs bit of patience and chess play) we could get in and get some kills... so anyway, I'm just saying I am not the all mighty super virtual pilot, I make mistakes which quicte frankly pi** me off :D and it's because I want to keep as high K/D ratio and survive as much as possible meaning I am pushing myself to not make such mistakes, I think this is the first thing every pilot has to have, this urge to be the better pilot, so for me it's not about fun, it's about trying to be as best as you can and fun part comes from when you do things right and the kill is the reward and I know I have not used any game tricks to achieve this... so fair enough the video you made was for fun, I just didn't see it like that, the way I saw it is that you were showing us how you guys were kicking a** in a 3x ship of Su-33's.

[3Sqn_TomAce]

Nice job on the video.

 

It is a pity the barrel roll is still affective and that lag can play a large part in any fight, but not much we as a community can do until the next evolution of fighter sims hit the market and even then who knows if these kinds of issues will be resolved.

 

 

As a server admin though it might be nice to limit that zoom to a more realistic level.

[asparagin]

Asparagin, there are the "game" modes, so those who prefer that type of play will still be able to partake - though obviously they might not be able to do so on the same servers as the study-simmers use.

 

Good to know!!

 

(psst: Sorry, I didn't intend to scare potential DCS newcomers :P)

[EtherealN]

(psst: Sorry, I didn't intend to scare potential DCS newcomers :P)

 

:D

 

I personally don't know how big of a deal those modes are for sales, but I assume that the people who make the design desicion to have those modes implemented know what they're doing. And besides, they can be fun - the "arcade mode" in DCS:BS brought me all the way back to my youthful days of playing Comanche vs Werewolf. Those games were awesome!

 

And besides, it might be a gentle seduction into the world of study sims. The simple fact that we are able to lament stuff like imperfect implementations leading to slightly off-kilter missile evasion techniques in itself shows that what we have here is a relatively rare and special thing in the first place. :)

[Case]

You can show us how real fighter pilots fly and fight.

The first step would be to value your life more than that of others. It makes a very very big difference if you take off with the mindset to stay alive, or if you take off with the mindset to kill as many people as possible before you die.

 

Only when that is your mindset will you start to fly more realistically, and will you be naturally forced to use more realistic tactics in engaging and defending against enemies.

[asparagin]

And besides, it might be a gentle seduction into the world of study sims. The simple fact that we are able to lament stuff like imperfect implementations leading to slightly off-kilter missile evasion techniques in itself shows that what we have here is a relatively rare and special thing in the first place. :)

 

True and nicely put.

[Boberro]

I think we'll have to wait for DCS: fighter for more realistically gameplay online. That will keep some percentage of cheaters and exploiters away. (No reference to the video)

 

Partially agree.

 

I highly doubt that some things will never change, some things you can't change. FC2 has done a good job at the protection of keeping bad people out. there is nothing it can do about high pings/lag and problems dealing with the internet.

 

I agreed with Asparagin cause from my personal experience in Falcon I have noticed that example me and 2 friends who play LO and FF fly different.

In Falcon I really rare (almost never) approach to landing from 1000 km\h braking by gears and maneuvers. Why? cause FF doesn't let you do that. You'll brake your gear if you down it too fast. In FF rarely I fly straight ahead of enemy in LO more often.

Simple, LO game allows you to do things which you wouldn't do in IMHO truly sim like DCS. So conclusion is = more advanced sim with real planes limitations = more real gameplay in multiplayer. It is simple, isn't it? ;]

[Cali]

The first step would be to value your life more than that of others. It makes a very very big difference if you take off with the mindset to stay alive, or if you take off with the mindset to kill as many people as possible before you die.

 

Only when that is your mindset will you start to fly more realistically, and will you be naturally forced to use more realistic tactics in engaging and defending against enemies.

 

Well said Case, this is the best way to look at it and frankly, not many people see it this way. Also, like Tomace said, zoom in should be fixed so people can't superzoom with their superman eyes.

 

@ winchesterdelta1,

Flying realistically does work in FC2 and we prove that all the time. Get a few of us in a server when we want to do good and see what happens. We and other squads have shut servers down cause the bad guys were getting worked that bad. However there are times were we really don’t care and just want to have fun, like you shown in that video. Some people even do very good flying alone using real tactics and it works good. One of the best things is to know your jet and weapons, the bad guys jet and weapons and get into a better firing solution them him. Nobody flies realistic everyday, it just doesn’t happen. I don’t care about your sarcastic comment, it doesn’t bother me one bit.

 

 

@asparagin,

You would be surprised, they might not do stuff like that all the time, but they will. Even the best pilots in FC2/DCS do crazy stuff just for fun. Keep hoping about things being changed drastically like that, not gonna happen. If that was the case then you can expect to see a huge drop off of people flying online.

 

 

To fly realistically in FC2 and live is not very hard. Just like Ethereal said it’s not hard to set up a few procedures before a flight. The main thing is to have people on comms. Which must squads have comms/bulleye and wingman procedures already.

[104th_Crunch]

Nice job on the video.

 

It is a pity the barrel roll is still affective and that lag can play a large part in any fight, but not much we as a community can do until the next evolution of fighter sims hit the market and even then who knows if these kinds of issues will be resolved.

 

 

As a server admin though it might be nice to limit that zoom to a more realistic level.

 

 

Hi Tom,

Where did I miss that in the video lag was present, ot uoi just mean in general?

 

I wasn't aware that the server can limit zoom of a player. How is that done? Thanks

[Cali]

Tom just meant in general, I don't know if the server can do anything about the zoom. It would be nice if they can force it.

[winchesterdelta1]

A vid i made a cople day's before the SU33 vid. Maybe more to your liking.

 

When Flankers and Eagles fly.

 

[Dingo]

:music_whistling:Watch out Winchester, trolls b everywhere.......

[winchesterdelta1]

LOL yeah i noticed.... Next time i will be more carefull posting a vid. People get very critical when you touch the game they love and don't play it like they do. If i was playing like this with them after establishing some rules i would understand the critsism.. cause than i would mess up their game experiance.

[3Sqn_TomAce]

Hey Crunch, I call it micro lag for lack of a better term, if you push pull your stick in quick succession a few times or in relation to the barrel roll it will often slightly lag out the jet enough so the missile won't track (combined with some over G). same thing when a player does a max performance roll it often lags a little. Not seen in the video.

 

 

Kuky mentioned how to limit the zoom, I'll get the details and let you know.

Edited December 21, 2010 by 3Sqn_TomAce

[Kuky]

You can limit the zoom by forcing ...Config/View/View.lua onto clients using integrity checks (or rather they would have to use the same View.lua) where Min/Max FoV (zoom) is specified.

 

It would be effective way of doing it but I see few downsides:

- people with 3 monitors for example need more zoomed out view to compensate for the loss of FoV in vertical, but you can compensate for that buy making Max FoV in View.lua to 150° instead of default 120°

- some people also like different HUD color (I am one of those :D) and using same View.lua they would have same HUD color (I'd asume it would be default one) but this is just a minor setback I think

- Head Roll Shaking is also defined here and some have it on, some off

- UseDefaultSnapViews is also defined here and some will have it on some off

 

I am not sure if all the negative would compensate for the positive, best case scenario would be if FoV were defined in Server.lua instead of View.lua

[RIPTIDE]

A new and more exciting vid of us flying a Fightersweep in a SU-33. See how our 3 ship close formation engages some F15's and Russian Fighters in BVR and close Furball. Sit back and watch the fight.

http://flankertraining.com/ironhand/index.html

 

Also ask Santa for a TrackIR/Freetrack. I suspect that your poor use of the hat switch to look around is blocking your brain subconsciously from even considering F-pole.

 

Where did you say you're from again?

[MoGas]

Hey Crunch, I call it micro lag for lack of a better term, if you push pull your stick in quick succession a few times or in relation to the barrel roll it will often slightly lag out the jet enough so the missile won't track (combined with some over G). same thing when a player does a max performance roll it often lags a little. Not seen in the video.

 

 

Kuky mentioned how to limit the zoom, I'll get the details and let you know.

 

Yes, this is a stupid issue, I see it on some players more and on some guys less. For example I had a engagement with the restricted loadout scenario, I shot first from 14 miles full STT lock, missile goes away, timer shows 13 second remaining, timer is on zero (ofcourse enemy shot 3 seconds after my launch too), I tried to turn away and got hit. But I saw the enemy on radar snaking, and looseing energy he got slower and slower by it, I was on a max crank, anyway, after watching the track, I saw to my surprise that my missile lost the track for some reason(but ingame my radar tells me all good missile is gona hit), after he did his first sharp left and right snake turn max-G. And you can see some sort of micro lag, even better on the tacview.

 

Like I said some people have it and some not for some reason, it has much greater impact on the game if you fly with semi actives only, there you see it right away.

[Aliboy]

I hope no one starts to suggest the 150 maximum ping like how some guys were saying after Red-Flag.:noexpression:

 

Also I like to use this FOV patch for the Su-33 by 159_Falcon

 

http://www.159thgar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3536

[Kuky]

I think that for people with not so good PC's when they yank on the stick a lot it makes them warp, on that last video in this thread you can see the guy flying in front warpls like that and I am pretty sure that's what makes missiles loose track... the things that p***es me off is that if I fire at someone from up high about the same time and we both crank and decend it will almost always be that my missile will not keep tracking and him will... it just drives me nuts sometimes...

 

And the thing with actives being fixed that they don't reacquire anything is not really fixed... how many times did I get an active on me out of nowhere even if the guy I shot at disengaged and lost lock and his missile did not go to active yet... today I got hit by an R-77 like that... the MiG-29S went defensive and dropped lock, I kept lock the whole time... some good 15-20 seconds after he droped lock his missile locked onto me and tracked... I could see on RWR it was not very high on energy and closing pretty slow... I strated climbing and turned to make it turn and lose more energy and it still reached me... that is just FUBAR... and what's even worse is that I don't recall ever having a kill if I fired a missile and lost lock that is reacquires like that on its own... it just doesn't happen.. alright, /rant over

Edited December 21, 2010 by Kuky

[Boberro]

I have very low PC and friend of mine has told me that I had warped a lot when he was under engagement at me. On my PC nothing was giving a signal something is wrong. So I guess people warp during battle but even don't know they do. ;]