Frostiken Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Close and re-open the refuel door before trying to re-connect to the boom. I don't know why people keep saying this. Just hit the NWS button, it'll reset the receptacle. I think Insert is the keyboard command. By the way, I blame some of my problems on the boom operator. Several times I'll creep into position, the boom will be in the 'right' spot, but suddenly I WILDLY pitch up, nearly clipping the -135's tail. Other times the guy just seems to have shitty aim... I also find the 'lowered' position of the boom when you're not immediately on top of it to be extremely disorienting for getting in the right position. Why isn't it *always* in the precontact position? Edited April 5, 2011 by Frostiken [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
hreich Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Wiggle your toes. Vipers in the storm? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Pilot from Croatia
hreich Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 The biggest thing that you can make to achieve easier refuel is to make curve adjustment according to this thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=69965 . Trust me, before this i couldnt even connect to the boom! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Pilot from Croatia
Druid_ Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 If you are wildy pitching up its because you are slightly high on the boom and the nose of the A10 rides up it. By the way, I blame some of my problems on the boom operator. Several times I'll creep into position, the boom will be in the 'right' spot, but suddenly I WILDLY pitch up, nearly clipping the -135's tail. Other times the guy just seems to have shitty aim... i7-7700K : 16Gb DDR4 2800 Mhz : Asus Mobo : 2TB HDD : Intel 520 SSD 240gb : RTX 2080ti: Win10 64pro : Dx10 : TrackiR4 : TM Warthog : ASUS ROG SWIFT PG348Q
Frostiken Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 If you are wildy pitching up its because you are slightly high on the boom and the nose of the A10 rides up it. Yeah well the guy is supposed to be steering it. If I was flying in at twenty knots over speed, sure, but this is just creeping in. I blame the guy's shitty aim :) [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Itkovian Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Does anyone have a good air refuelling training mission, with the proper radio comms setup (I use complex comms)? I don't know how to use the editor (especially to set up frequency and such), so it would be nice if someone had a refuellling mission handy and could post it. Thank you. Itkovian
Druid_ Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah well the guy is supposed to be steering it. If I was flying in at twenty knots over speed, sure, but this is just creeping in. I blame the guy's shitty aim :) Aye, he's a bit of a slacker !! Obviously a long time single bloke. i7-7700K : 16Gb DDR4 2800 Mhz : Asus Mobo : 2TB HDD : Intel 520 SSD 240gb : RTX 2080ti: Win10 64pro : Dx10 : TrackiR4 : TM Warthog : ASUS ROG SWIFT PG348Q
Itkovian Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Failing an actual pre-made refueling training mission, would anyone please post some hints on how to create such a mission (what type of WPs to make for the tanker, what task, how do you assign frequency to contact tanker, etc.) Thank you. Itkovian
Ptroinks Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) I remember when I had huge difficulties refueling in Falcon 4. Then I got a Saitek X-45, and suddenly it was, well, not a piece of cake, but I was able to refuel with a maximum of two disconnects, so that was great. Now I'm having the same difficulties with the A-10, but buying a HOTAS Warthog didn't help much. Damn, this is hard! Someone, please tell me refueling is easier in real life :cry:... Edit: By the way, what would the realistic speed and altitude of a tanker on station be? Edited April 5, 2011 by Ptroinks [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
StrongHarm Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Once again, the best thing you can do is tune your axis. It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
Ptroinks Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah, I know, and I'm tuning away :). Haven't found the "sweet spot" yet, so I guess I'll just keep trying. BTW, doesn't having saturation set to 70 limit the maneuverability? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
StrongHarm Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 75% spreads the useful range of the stick out across 100%. How often do you use 75-100 range of the stick with the hawg? The flight surfaces are so huge, even if you do use that range, it just bleeds energy and takes you into a very inefficient AOA range. I do switch between 0-100-75-50 and 5-100-90-35 depending on the day. It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
Ptroinks Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 You're right about the 75-100% range of the stick, so I'll try tweaking that a little bit more. Airspeed and trim are the most difficult aspects for me. It's hard to fly formation with the tanker when it steadily decreases speed while refueling (a couple of knots, enough to throw me off :) ), and I can never get that trim set for the correct speed. It always ends up a little high or a little low. Flying in formation is also very difficult because of the canopy frame (or what you call it) blocking the view. Holding a set speed is surprisingly hard to do. Especially after making contact. I guess that's just a matter of practice, though, and getting used to how the connection itself affects your airspeed. Well, I'll just continue practicing. I just managed to stay connected for a full 10 seconds, and I never managed that before :)! PS: ED, I still want a sober boom operator! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Snoopy Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 You're right about the 75-100% range of the stick, so I'll try tweaking that a little bit more. Airspeed and trim are the most difficult aspects for me. It's hard to fly formation with the tanker when it steadily decreases speed while refueling (a couple of knots, enough to throw me off :) ), and I can never get that trim set for the correct speed. It always ends up a little high or a little low. Flying in formation is also very difficult because of the canopy frame (or what you call it) blocking the view. Holding a set speed is surprisingly hard to do. Especially after making contact. I guess that's just a matter of practice, though, and getting used to how the connection itself affects your airspeed. Well, I'll just continue practicing. I just managed to stay connected for a full 10 seconds, and I never managed that before :)! PS: ED, I still want a sober boom operator! Windscreen..... I'm with you on refueling...I can connect but staying connected is something all together different!!! v303d Fighter Group Discord | Virtual 303d Fighter Group Website
StrongHarm Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Ptroinks, after you bring your axis curves up a bit consider the following methods: • Approach the tanker to about 50ft low and 200ft back and hold that for a moment • Match speed with the tanker.. then set your trim • Come up to the tanker at a very slow rate of speed, don't retrim on approach • Get a 'site picture' on where the tanker is in relation to your canopy supports, concentrate on keeping that 'shape' rather than flying the boom You might try opening your speed brakes just a tad as well.. the aircraft is much more stable. I use a touch of speed brakes in a lot of situations. 1 It's a good thing that this is Early Access and we've all volunteered to help test and enhance this work in progress... despite the frustrations inherent in the task with even the simplest of software... otherwise people might not understand that this incredibly complex unfinished module is unfinished. /light-hearted sarcasm
Itkovian Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) Well, I finally did find a mission to practice in (Guns n Rockets, see http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=67702, thank you nomdeplume), and spent a couple of hours having a go at it last night. It was a challenge at first, but now I think I've got the hang of it. Still not perfect and I get a few disconnects, but nothing major (the mission starts you off at 25% fuel, too). To start off, I set my Y and X axis to 15% saturation, which isn't excessive and maintains good responsiveness. It is a justified change, considering that the real A-10's stick is at the end of a far longer lever arm than the HOTAS Warthog, which therefore allows them to be more precise. Saturation recreates that somewhat (except for the really coarse movements). Then, as suggested in this thread, I try and fit the tanker into a specific position in relation to the support frames, right above the HUD (where it is circular on either side and above of the HUD). So, as I close in 1 or 2 knots above the tanker's speed I try and keep it in a mental "slot", and then I just let the tanker make the connection when I get close enough. Once the connection is made, I have found that the greatest challenge is regulating speed. You have to keep the tanker in its "slot", while making sure you don't get too close or too far. And for that, I think the best help is to use the probe colour marks as a guide, and to anticipate needed acceleration/deceleration. If you're in the green but the probe is getting shorter, decelerate a little, and accelerate if its getting longer. In fact, I've found that sometimes sharp throttle changes might be needed for a split second or so before returning to "neutral" (so if the probe is rapidly shorterning to the red, I cut the throttles for half a second then bring the engines back up to a little slower than before). Doing so saved my connection many times. Also, it helps to "anticipate" the throttle a bit. For example, if the probe is getting longer, add more throttle, but when it starts getting shorter cut it back a little. If you're lucky you'll hit the sweet spot, but if not you will still have a few seconds of stability as your A/C slows down and starts losing ground again, at which point you add more throttle and repeat the process. Fortunately, you don't need to maintain the connection for very long to fill up. :) But anyway, I think the best hint is to try and fit the tanker in a mental slot you create for yourself above the HUD, and when you have the connection only use your throttle to maintain the proper probe length (and stay in the green). If you have to use the stick to move up or down, odds are you'll disconnect anyway. Stick should be just for keeping the tanker in the slot, and let the throttle handle the probe. That said, I did run into an interesting bug: the first time I filled up it worked fine, but in all subsequent attempt the tanker would call for a disconnect when I filled up, but not actually disconnect. And when I DID disconnect the tanker would call for a reconnect even though my tanks were full. And when I reconnected, tanker would again call for disconnect a second later but maintain the connection. It made for great practice mind you, since I could continue holding the connection as long as I could, but I had to abort the refueling to get the tanker to return to its station despite being "topped off" several times over. :) Anyway, thank you for the help on this thread. It definitely is quite a challenge. :) Itkovian Edited April 6, 2011 by Itkovian
Frostiken Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 That said, I did run into an interesting bug: the first time I filled up it worked fine, but in all subsequent attempt the tanker would call for a disconnect when I filled up, but not actually disconnect. I found a writeup on one of our jets today for fuels shop, apparently the jet couldn't disconnect from the tanker at all. No more details but I'm wondering how that worked out :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
todd022 Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Disclaimer: The following post is meant to be sensational and inflammatory. Read at your own risk. Can you imagine how much trouble we are going to have with the "iron maiden" (probe-n-drogue) in DCS: Hornet? :) [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Itkovian Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Disclaimer: The following post is meant to be sensational and inflammatory. Read at your own risk. Can you imagine how much trouble we are going to have with the "iron maiden" (probe-n-drogue) in DCS: Hornet? :) Well, in that case the challenge will be to line up properly... once that's done, I would imagine the drogue is more forgiving of speed changes, so long as you aim on the faster side. Once we're connected, then we can speed up a bit and build up some slack. What scares me more is the idea of refueling at night in bad weather. Reading Warthog (book about the A-10s in the Gulf War), I get nightmares just thinking about refuelling in the middle of the Atlantic, at night, while dodging storms cells. :) Itkovian
Zag Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Can you imagine how much trouble we are going to have with the "iron maiden" (probe-n-drogue) in DCS: Hornet? They will have to make a specific hornet model that cannot carry guns or missiles...... :music_whistling: 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
jiblet Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Doesn't a trailing drogue give you more leeway once you're connected though? It also doesn't give me the idiot on the end of the boom who I swear smacked it through the canopy as i approached last night. Grrr.
SimFreak Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 Is there a way to make tanker do a constant turn? I'd like to increase difficulty :P
Ptroinks Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 I would imagine that a probe-and-drogue system will be easier to use after the connection is made, as Jiblet is suggesting. The "drunken boom operator" won't be a problem, at least... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Ptroinks Posted April 6, 2011 Posted April 6, 2011 (edited) You might try opening your speed brakes just a tad as well.. the aircraft is much more stable. I use a touch of speed brakes in a lot of situations. Didn't think of that! I'll try using a bit of speed brakes as well. The initial approach to the tanker isn't a problem for me. It's the part after the connection is made that needs more training. Actually, I've gotten pretty good at recovering after a disconnect or if the boom operator decides to sabotage my connection attempt and hits me with the boom. I've noticed a couple of aspects of aerial refueling that I should train on: -formation flying with the tanker: I'm going to try flying in formation with it withouth asking for fuel, so the boom won't be in my way. This way, I might learn how to maintain my position relative to the tanker better. It would also teach me to watch the tanker and not the boom. If I can do this, then I might be able to ignore the boom when I'm actually trying to refuel. -Speed changes: Learning to not observe speed changes by the airspeed indicator, but by the relative speed to the tanker (visually). -Throttle: Getting to know my throttle: Learning to know how much I need to move my throttle to increase/decrease airspeed by 1/10th of a knot. This would have to be measured visually, though. Edited April 6, 2011 by Ptroinks 1 [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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