Question: How much armor is around the engines?

[Henchman14]

As per the title. And what are the maximum size rounds they can defeat? So far, the cockpit seems to have more armor around it than the engines. The cockpit is said to be able to stand up to .50 AP or up to 23mm HE. But armour on everything else is kind of vague.

[AlphaOneSix]

Armor around the engines...easy. None.

[Henchman14]

Ok, thanks. That clears things up. The manual kind of infers their is armor around other parts of the copter besides the cockpit. For such a heavy beast of a copter, you would think they would have put some armor around the engines too. At least against .50 cal. Time for crew made mods! Off to get the cutting torch and visit the scrap yard.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Henchman14

[Mugenjin]

Ok, thanks. That clears things up. The manual kind of infers their is armor around other parts of the copter besides the cockpit. For such a heavy beast of a copter, you would think they would have put some armor around the engines too. At least against .50 cal. Time for crew made mods! Off to get the cutting torch and visit the scrap yard.

 

Well you wouldn't want your aircraft to be heavier than necessary, would you?

[Henchman14]

I don't know. At the rate I'm getting my engines blown by .50 cals, I'm thinking about welding on some more armor over the engines. :p

[sobek]

I don't know. At the rate I'm getting my engines blown by .50 cals, I'm thinking about welding on some more armor over the engines. :p

 

Good tactics is more effective than relying on armor plating. You shouldn't fly into areas where you get shot at in the first place. :)

[joey45]

if you keep on getting shot down, then you're doing something wrong.

[Kite]

from wikipedia... don't know if it is correct...

"Kamov maintains that the co-axial drive assembly is built to survive hits from 23 mm ammunition like the other vital parts of the helicopter"

Hope this help

bye

Kite

[msalama]

Hmm... well I'd wager ED has it more right than Wikipedia myself. Y'know, I kind of believe it when they say they actually did their homework concerning this bugga :eek: ;)

Edited January 8, 2011 by msalama

[msalama]

if you keep on getting shot down, then you're doing something wrong.

 

this

[AlphaOneSix]

Since the main gearbox of a helicopter is the one part form which the entire aircraft hangs, it has to be the strongest part of the helicopter out of necessity. The main gearbox on the Ka-50 weighs 925kg (roughly 2040lb), for example. Since they have to be so strong to withstand any possible stress that the aircraft can put on it, they are naturally bullet-resistant, so saying that a gearbox can take a hit from such-and-such caliber is a nice marketing point, but it's not something they think about during design and development, at least not primarily.

[Henchman14]

Well, the thing definitely needs some armor around the engines. They appear to be the weakest point on the aircraft. And in order to get in with the gun or rockets, you have to get close. I watch the Mi-24 take huge amounts of fire, and walk away. Thats the copter I want to fly. It can both take it, and give it. Not so, the Ka-50.

[AlphaOneSix]

The Mi-24 also has no armor around the engines. And on the Mi-24, the engines are right next to each other, so you are more likely to lose both to the same hit, while the Ka-50 engines are on opposite sides of the fuselage, so you are much less likely to lose both in a single hit.

[Yurgon]

Well, the thing definitely needs some armor around the engines.

 

Seriously, I don't think so. Any combat aircraft is designed so it can take a certain amount of fire without critical failure (as in: midair explosion or something).

 

You make it sound like the Ka-50 should be a flying tank and should be able to take direct hits on the engines. IMO, that's just not what it's designed for. It is not designed to take direct hits on the engines. It is designed to *survive* such hits. That's why there are 3 fire extinguisher channels. That's why the engines are on opposite sides of the fuselage (as AlphaOneSix already mentioned).

 

You're not supposed to take such a beating or expose your chopper to it. But if you, as the pilot, screw up and get all shot up by (more or less) small arms fire, the Ka-50 should be one of the best choices to keep you alive when others would just drop out of the sky. And there's always this neat ejection feature which is kinda unique in helicopters anyways. I guess if the designers felt that the aircraft should be able to take that kind of fire, they'd have omitted the ejection seat.

 

Now, that was the theoretical part. The practical part from my personal experience is that engine failure due to enemy ground fire is really the least of my problems. If my Black Shark gets shot down by small arms ground fire, I screwed up. That rarely happens.

 

I usually get shot down by AAA or MANPADS or SAMs or APCs or MBTs. There are a *lot* of threats on the battlefield. Let me just repeat, because IMHO this is really important, that when the chopper gets hit by small arms fire, the pilot screwed up because the chopper never should have been that close to enemy infantry in the first place.

 

Besides, the Apache doesn't feature any armor around the engines either, does it? I think that the AH-64 and the Ka-50 share some basic ideas: armor around the cockpit to protect the crew, *no* armor around the engines (but redundant engines to keep the aircraft flying even if one engine gets shot up). Neither helicopter is designed to withstand incoming fire, but both are designed to survive a maximum amount of it. And this is most probably true for most, if not all, attack helicopters all around the world - don't get shot at, but *if* that happens, keep the crew alive as long as possible.

[AlphaOneSix]

Besides, the Apache doesn't feature any armor around the engines either, does it?

 

No armor around the Apache engines, either.

[joey45]

Well, the thing definitely needs some armor around the engines. They appear to be the weakest point on the aircraft. And in order to get in with the gun or rockets, you have to get close.

 

ATGM = take out AAA/SAM from afar

 

RKTS/GUNS = soft targets with limited AA capabilities.

 

What Airframe has armour around the engines?

[Henchman14]

No armor around the Apache engines, either.

 

Well, then damage for the AI copters is waaayy off. I hit an Apache 6 times once with vhikers and it didn't go down. I've seen AH-64s and Mi-24's take hit after hit from .50's and 20mm to critical areas and just shrug it off. Its really annoying, as I agree, the Ka-50 should be able to take more damage than a Mi-24. I hope you guys will put in more realistic damage models for your AI.

[Henchman14]

ATGM = take out AAA/SAM from afar

 

RKTS/GUNS = soft targets with limited AA capabilities.

 

What Airframe has armour around the engines?

 

Well, in the manual, it says some vague stuff about aluminum armor around critical systems. I would think the engines would be a "critical" system. lol.

But I guess their is none. I can see armor takes a LOT of weight, but I would hope they would at least protect them from 7.62 and lower.

 

@Yurgon. I'm mostly talking about APCs. But, yeah, lets be realistic. You never know where some guy with an AKM is going to be. He could lean out a window and shoot at you. People with AKMs are everywhere. AKM is the most common threat on the battlefield. Hopefully engines will be protected against at least that.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Henchman14

[Migow]

Well, then damage for the AI copters is waaayy off. I hit an Apache 6 times once with vhikers and it didn't go down. I've seen AH-64s and Mi-24's take hit after hit from .50's and 20mm to critical areas and just shrug it off. Its really annoying, as I agree, the Ka-50 should be able to take more damage than a Mi-24. I hope you guys will put in more realistic damage models for your AI.

 

yeah the ai (air)are too tough...:mad:

[msalama]

AH-64s and Mi-24's take hit after hit

 

Whereas I've actually downed a Hind with a single extremely lucky cannon shot once ;) So it probably depends on where you hit them, no?

[sobek]

I hit an Apache 6 times once with vhikers and it didn't go down.

 

Chances are you think you saw hits. A direct hit from a Vikhr will down ANY chopper. Be sure you change the fuse setting when attacking airborne targets or your missiles will not damage the target accordingly.

[Henchman14]

Whereas I've actually downed a Hind with a single extremely lucky cannon shot once ;) So it probably depends on where you hit them, no?

I don't have any problem when it comes to cannons. I've downed an Apache on an engine hit with one bullet from my 30mm at close range. Its the vhikers that don't seem to really work. The worst I've seen were those 6 I fired at an apache on AA mode. I'm pretty sure at least 3 were dead on target, as I got closer. If you look at the apache with F2, you see its shot to hell, but still flying like there nothing wrong. Moving Ground Target (regular) mode doesn't seem to fair any better. Its their damage models. They're just too arcade. And don't get me started on their godlike weaponry. In the Battle mission, I got tired of them instantly coming to kill me, so I set out 3 tunguska's under my starting postion. The apaches came, took out the tunguska to my right, then killed both me and my wingman ( who was set on Good AI ). I can't win for nothing! Bang head on computer. They are the assassins of the sky. You can't win. Not head to head. As for watching other heli's get shot by .50 up to 25 and 30mm, they seem to be able to take 6 or 7 times the amount of damage my heli can. I watched a tank hit one of the Apaches about 15 times with solid hits to its side and underbelly. It still manages to limp away. It was damaged, but still flying. That would have ripped my copter apart.

 

The AI damage models need some tweaking..

Edited January 9, 2011 by Henchman14

[Yuya6104]

me have friend who pilot the Ка-50 in Spuciak Ops in Russian Air Force his 6th year flying.. me asked him this long time ago about are engines armored he said in fact there armored an vital part but if a engine kocked out by heavy cannon or RPG fire can run one one engine ..

 

so there like 350kg surrounding vital parts that are main concered if going have aircraft be used for special ops missions go deep in enemy lines most likey geting hit alot provide cover for spetznats..

 

if me was in Ка-50 me be happy go war with it any day or Ка-52 even through little heavier... ^^

Edited January 10, 2011 by Yuya6104

[msalama]

Its the vhikers that don't seem to really work.

 

I'm sorry, but the culprit has got to be you doing something wrong instead of Vikhrs (or DMs) being porked. Granted, I don't have much expertise in A-to-A Vikhr usage, but still sometimes practice with this little mission where I attack a FARP in the mountains, and one of the tasks is to shoot a patrolling Mi-24 down. And you know what, it usually goes to pieces with just one good missile hit!

 

So nope, I'm just not seeing this myself...

[power5]

Henchman specifically mentioned 6 vihkrs to kill an apache. Never mentioned how many to kill a hind. If his missiles exploded and did not fly past the apache, there should have been shrapnel. And 6 missiles worth of shrapnel should easily bring down any apache.

 

Yuya, from those pictures, it does not appear to have armor on Ka50 engine covers. If there is any armor, it looks to be pretty thin.