Return of the F15 [Wired-article]

[-fox-]

Old School Jet Retooled to Slay Stealth Fighters

 

It’s been just three weeks since China unveiled its new J-20 stealth fighter, and already the U.S. Air Force has plans well underway to defeat the mysterious plane from Chengdu.

No, the Pentagon won’t be buying more F-22 Raptors from Lockheed Martin. Instead, the U.S. military’s main flying branch has turned to an older jet that, with upgrades, could prove to be an even better J-20-killer than the newer, more expensive F-22. That’s right: the Boeing F-15 Eagle, one of the stars of the 1991 Gulf War, is quickly shaping up as America’s main countermeasure to China’s new fighter for the next 20 years.

[Pilotasso]

Some strange and twisted logic there :huh:

[mikoyan]

It doesn't sound that crazy to me, what if you put the engines of the f-22 on an eagle! and upgrade all the avionics an radar? the only thing that it will be missing would be stealth and wing area of the 5th generation fighters. To me it sounds logical if the issue is budget; what about the f-16 offered to India! it is like an f-35 in the skin of an f-16 in terms of avionics.

[Jinro]

I always thought the F-22 was strange and twisted logic :P Who needs stealth to fight insurgents on the streets and in caves? I still remember I was a just a kid when the F22 program started and it's just now recently going into service. Seems like a waste of money to me.

[WynnTTr]

I always thought the F-22 was strange and twisted logic :P Who needs stealth to fight insurgents on the streets and in caves? I still remember I was a just a kid when the F22 program started and it's just now recently going into service. Seems like a waste of money to me.

 

In conflict, direct confrontation will lead to engagement and surprise will lead to victory. Those who are skilled in producing surprises will win. Such tacticians are as versatile as the changes in heaven and earth.

And as inexhaustible as the flow of a great river or like the sun and moon, appearing and disappearing and the four seasons, one cycle after another.

They are like the five music notes; combinations that produce endless melodies, like the five colours: mixture that produces a variety of beautiful objects.

In directing a conflict, there is only ambush or direct confrontation. Yet their combinations produce a variation of possible battle plans.

 

 

[Jinro]

Stealth isn't going to surprise an enemy who doesn't use radar.

[RIPTIDE]

Stealth isn't going to surprise an enemy who doesn't use radar.

I think stealth will surprise anyone whether they use radar or not. But I've said it before, use longer wavelength systems and at lest you know who and what is there.

[tflash]

Well, Aviation week has a story on similar lines, this time not involving F-15: http://bit.ly/hSkUie

[Mugenjin]

I always thought the F-22 was strange and twisted logic :P Who needs stealth to fight insurgents on the streets and in caves? I still remember I was a just a kid when the F22 program started and it's just now recently going into service. Seems like a waste of money to me.

 

Why'd you assume that the F-22 was designed to fight insurgents anyway? When you were a kid did the US already fight insurgents? :music_whistling:

[EtherealN]

Stealth isn't going to surprise an enemy who doesn't use radar.

 

You are making the false assumption that the USA has fighting insurgents as it's only objective, which is false. Militaries don't procure what they need today - they procure what they might need tomorrow. That way, if they do find themselves needing it, they won't have to wait 10 years to build it.

 

The F-22 is an air superiority fighter. It's job is to deny any (emphasis on "any") enemy the use of airspace, with some added SDB delivery capabilities and such. This airspace might be US soil, it might be Taiwan, it might be Iran, it might be Korea - whatever the situation in the world ends up demanding.

 

It is also meant to dissuade foreign powers from attacking. For example, let's say the DPRK buys a fleet of planes (something that isn't ancient, like their current inventory), and then starts posturing against ROK. The US then dispatches two squadrons of F-22's and four squadrons of F-35's to bases in the ROK and/or Japan - and the DPRK is now incapable of achieving air superiority in a conflict and war doesn't happen. The plane then did it's job without ever firing a shot.

 

That's the idea. Ensure peace through preparing for war.

[Pilotasso]

F-22's will be better than F-15's any time of the day, I think due to budget difficulties and some rather dubious philosophy on Robert Gates side is causing these fantasy allegation that cold war era aircraft will "easily" deal with 5th gen fighter technology. Sounds like the same drivel we've been hearing about recycled flankers all these years. Ironic.

[tflash]

No, the story isn't silly at all; I read at least two interviews stating that the F-15C with AESA radar has longer range detection than F-22. This is only logical: the APG-77 is a decade older than Raytheon's newest radars. Having more than two decades advance on the competition regarding stealth, it is understandable that US companies are now focusing on anti-stealth radar optimization; which according to the Aviation week article is the case with the radar for F-35.

[mikoyan]

The f-22 is like the f-15c; when it was introduced it was the best in terms of performance and as a fighter was great; but latter fighters came with newer and more advanced tech; you can't compare the f-15c cockpit of the 80s-90s with an f-16 or f-18. The f-22 has the best performance and provably can kill other airplanes like no other but it is not necessarily the most advanced; look at the f-35 it is way more complex and advanced in terms of avionics than the f-22; the only difference would be that the f-35 does not posses the pure performance of the raptor.

 

These are the things than an upgraded eagle would not have if you compared it with the raptor:

 

Super cruise could be achieved but the internal bays designed for the silent eagle can't carry the same amount of missiles as the raptor. The f-15 would perform worst in dogfights at any altitude than the f-22; the f-22 has more wing area and more advanced aerodynamic design; there is no way around that; unless the f-15 gets new wings and control surfaces.

The raptor is a stealth aircraft so it will be harder to detect and shoot than the eagle; unless you put some serious interference gear on the eagle thus reducing the need for low radar signature(the problem with this is that it kills the surprise factor).

Airframe limitations; the f-15 is an older airplane and probably there are some things you can't do to improve its performance; the raptor may have more space for future growth and development than the eagle.

 

If it I were on charge of the f-15 upgrades ; I would mix the Active f-15 program, the F-15 STOL/MTD with the silent eagle using if possible the f-22 engines; then the f-15 would kick ass :thumbup: it would look bad ass too!

[Pilotasso]

No, the story isn't silly at all; I read at least two interviews stating that the F-15C with AESA radar has longer range detection than F-22. This is only logical: the APG-77 is a decade older than Raytheon's newest radars. Having more than two decades advance on the competition regarding stealth, it is understandable that US companies are now focusing on anti-stealth radar optimization; which according to the Aviation week article is the case with the radar for F-35.

 

Range doesnt mean squat in this case, specially when the APG-77 is not a single dish, its an array or several antennas, one at the nose, 2 side looking antennas and wing ribbons and the eagle doenst support a similar system. This makes the APG-77 more adequate for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately F-22's have been cut back in this capability and the array is not complete when the planes left the factory but its planned at a latter upgrade. They dont even need to build other planes.

[tflash]

The current APG-77 is a single dish, the side arrays are NOT in the planning for a foreseeable future:

 

Increment 3.1 (from 2011-2014): SAR capability for APG-77; adaption to carry 8 GBU-39 SDB; possibility to retarget the two JDAM's in flight; upgrade of GPS; better cockpit displays.

Increment 3.2 (2015 onwards): Aim-120D and AIM-9X integration, auto-GCAS and possibly MADL (to communicate with F-35); possibility to retarget the 8 SDB's. HMCS is not even foreseen in the near future.

 

This shows that rather than strenghtening the F-22's air defense capabilities (which is not necessary), it is more urgently developed as a niche stealth sead/strike aircraft for denied access areas, capitalising on the superior AN/ALR-94 (it can produce extremely accurate emmitter coordinates).

 

This does not mean F-15 is better at air combat than F-22, but the idea to use its longer range radar in combo with the F-22 makes perfectly sense. The AN/APG-63(V)3 can detect small and low-RCS targets at very long range.

 

Since USAF and ANG got less F-22's than hoped for homeland defense and F-35 is still far away, their only viable option is to upgrade F-15 (also for simple reasons of obsolescence: Raytheon isn't keen on keeping producing parts for the older generation radars. )

[asparagin]

I think stealth will surprise anyone whether they use radar or not.

 

What exactly do you mean?

[topol-m]

What exactly do you mean?

 

I guess he means aliens can`t detect our fifth gen fighters. ;)

[EtherealN]

Not using radar isn't an antidote to "stealth". Depends on what you replace it with, and how that works out for you.

 

Most of the time - it's definitely not a replacement for radar. IRST is cool and all, but head-on-aspect with a plane that sees you on radar and you don't see... You're boned. Tail-aspect with the target with AB on... well he's out of your WEZ, so you can't do anything.

[Pilotasso]

precisely.

[tflash]

The idea that the F-22 would not use its own radar in such a scenario is indeed compleet nonsense.

[RIPTIDE]

The idea that the F-22 would not use its own radar in such a scenario is indeed compleet nonsense.

Well, datalink + long range AWACS/GCI + 120D.

 

As stealth becomes more ubiquitous I think we'll see bigger use of large ground installations to compensate for the limited capabilities of airborne radars. Interesting times ahead.

[RIPTIDE]

What exactly do you mean?

If you don't use your radar you will be surprised when your engines are on fire. If you do use radar, you will be surprised when your engines are on fire. :thumbup:

[asparagin]

If you don't use your radar you will be surprised when your engines are on fire.

 

Not immediately, but this is also not the way carry operations (unless maybe you have the equipment from your post above)

[EtherealN]

Well, datalink + long range AWACS/GCI + 120D.

 

Would require new AWACS systems, since most systems today are not fit (nor meant to be fit) for giving targeting information to a weapon. Similarly, the AWACS potentially larger dish is usually offset by the airframe itself being detectable at much larger range (you don't need a large dish to find an E3 at long range), and the platform needs to be at longer range to be safe - which might potentially negate it's practical use vs a LO system.

 

I place more faith in the much simpler datalink + 120D combo, with some tactics added on top. Switch between who is the looker and who is the shooter, and basically use tactics similar to MiG-29 valley-hopping. You would probably be able to expect a numeric advantage, and can usually accept a slightly lopsided exchange ratio.

 

...unless your country is small enough that you can't field way more convential planes than the enemy can field stealth planes. Then you ought to be at the negotiation table, not up in the air trying to fight a war. :P

 

But the whole point with the F-15's in this case, whether it works or not (they've practiced with F-15's vs F-22's, so I bet they might know a thing or two), is the greater detection range that it's design can offer compared to the F-22. Now it might not be a stealth plane and therefore end up forced to use terrain and such things (BLASPHEMY) to shield it as it positions for a shot, but I can certainly see the point.

 

Make it even more fun with an F-15 going terrain masked, looking up and TWSing the enemy stealth plane, and the other F-15 at angels 60 launching on that datalinked information from 40nm away and mach 2... And you might have something. There's a lot of things that seem wonky to the concept, but as far as capability vs budget goes, I suspect they might be on to something. Add the waypointing-capability of the 120 and you could potentially launch before you even have a firing solution - the scout says "expect target somewhere here", then you launch, and as soon as you do get the target track you feed it over the datalink to the missile that is already in the air, minimizing the EMCON vulnerability of the scout.

Edited January 16, 2011 by EtherealN

[RIPTIDE]

Nah... the MiG will probably just waste it in the hills, and then EOS the crap out of the high guy and then, and the Flanker will Alamo-E the crap out of the Awacs and all will be lost. Hang on until i get popcorn.