TrackIR5 & HUD scaling

[popov]

Hi all,

I know I have found before the thread but now I cant seam to find it again...

I am actually looking for how to fix the scaling of the HUD considering the use of Track IR5 that makes it by default always on the same size... even if I move my head toward the HUD the display always seams to stay far away...

 

Can someone help me finding the post on how to edit the config file to resolve this please?

 

thx ! :thumbup:

Edited February 20, 2011 by popov

[Toxe]

I am actually looking for how to fix the scaling of the HUD considering the use of Track IR5 that makes it by default always on the same size... even if I move my head toward the HUD the display always seams to stay far away...

Yes, that's how it works in a real plane. But you can press the / and * keys on your numerical key block to zoom in or out.

[kingneptune117]

Popov, that is how real HUD's work. Use the * key to zoom in and / key to zoom out.

[Stretch]

My biggest, fattest, giantest fear right now ... is I guess the next big earthquake to hit SF.

 

But number 2 is definitely my fear that Eagle will change the way the HUD is rendered in-game, making it "painted onto the glass" rather than focused at infinity, so as to stem the confusion caused by the more realistic behavior.

[TRoe13]

Start Track IR. Start your game. In the in-game options, go to Controls, then in the drop down box, select Axis Commands, look at the bottom for Zoom View. You should be able to click under the TIR column and make the game-zoom view on the TIR Z axis. Now the HUD will scale to where ever your head is at like it does IRL. Enjoy :)

[nomdeplume]

Now the HUD will scale to where ever your head is at like it does IRL.

 

Actually the whole point is that symbology on real-life HUDs does not get bigger when you move your head closer to it. If that was the real-life behaviour, it would be the default in the sim. Note that every other bit of the cockpit does get larger when you move your virtual head closer to it; the fact the HUD symbology doesn't should indicate that it's a deliberate design decision for it not to.

[hassata]

My biggest, fattest, giantest fear right now ... is I guess the next big earthquake to hit SF.

 

But number 2 is definitely my fear that Eagle will change the way the HUD is rendered in-game, making it "painted onto the glass" rather than focused at infinity, so as to stem the confusion caused by the more realistic behavior.

 

 

No chance. On number 2 that is.

[MTFDarkEagle]

Now the HUD will scale to where ever your head is at like it does IRL. Enjoy :)

 

It doesn't work like that ;) IRL the "size" remains the same, regardless of head position, because the HUD has been focussed to infinite, via some complicated optics.

[nomdeplume]

And in real life you have to turn your head 90 degrees to the left in order to see what is happening on your left 90 degrees.

I wasn't saying you shouldn't use zoom if it helps you enjoy the game, I was just saying it's not how it works in real life. :P

 

I can read the HUD fine on my 22" at 1680x1080, provided I first reset the zoom to default level after the game starts. For whatever reason, when the sim first loads, the view zooms out a bit and makes the HUD too small for me to read. Hitting the reset zoom button (Numpad Enter, but I have it bound to my HOTAS) gives a field of view that's actually usable.

[hassata]

The DCS A10 HUD is one of the biggest cockpit improvements over FC2 (or really any previous sim) for me.

[sobek]

I think it's a nice detail but irrelevant for overall simulation.

 

That is completely and utterly wrong. The HUD being focused to infinity is the most integral part to visual aiming. Just see freefalcon and how porked CCIP is if your head is not at the exact standard spot in the 3d pit. THAT is a huge PITA. There is no way for the HUD to show you the correct aiming solution if it is not focused to infinity. Jeesh. Do some research plz.

Edited February 20, 2011 by sobek

[mic1184]

this has been extenisvely discussed a couple days before

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=66627

 

it has been said numerous times that HUD is projected into infinity for obvious reasons. if you don't understand it, hold a piece of paper on your window and now read it while looking to whats outside.

 

your eyes have to change focus constantly which tires you within a minute. that's what it would be like if it was projected focusing the glass itself.

 

now look at something at the horizon outside your window. move your head a foot forward. does it become bigger?

[sobek]

[...]

 

That's only part of it (the part which can not be replicated in the sim). There also is the part where the aiming cues have to point at the same spot at infinite range, no matter from what direction you look at the HUD (with limitations, obviously). Notice how the gun still hits correctly if your head is offset to one side. That's the magic of the HUD.

[mic1184]

That's only part of it (the part which can not be replicated in the sim). There also is the part where the aiming cues have to point at the same spot at infinite range, no matter from what direction you look at the HUD (with limitations, obviously). Notice how the gun still hits correctly if your head is offset to one side. That's the magic of the HUD.

 

i didnt even think of that problem. it's the more obvious one though ;-)

[sobek]

I'm not going to do research, I already know why HUD is made like that.

 

In fact, I actually do not use forward-backward head movement at all, just "standard zoom", and I like it. I guess you can live with that. :)

 

Well that is your choice, but for other users (head tracking users, in particular), it is an integral part, so don't knock it off as some fancy gimick. DCS is the first sim i know of that really managed to replicate a real life HUD. It's not a small thing.

[nomdeplume]

Just enjoy with your HUD focused to infinity as much as I enjoy with "zoomed-one"

These aren't mutually exclusive things. Zooming doesn't disable the benefits of it being focused to infinity. If it wasn't focused at infinity, no matter how much you zoomed it could still place symbology in the wrong place so you'd miss your target. How that's "irrelevant for overall simulation" is beyond me.

 

I suppose you might consider not being able to move your virtual head around irrelevant to the overall simulation, but being able to peek around the canopy frame to keep a target in sight is integral to the simulation because it affects how you play it. If your head is stuck in a fixed position, then the only way to keep a target in sight is to maneuver so your frame isn't obscuring it. That changes the way you fly/flight.

 

That doesn't mean that it's "wrong" to play with a fixed head position, any more than it's "wrong" to play with a HUD-only view. It's your game, enjoy it how you want. It's just that seemingly small changes can make significant differences to the way you play.

[TRoe13]

I don't think the HUD text is actually "getting bigger" as you zoom in and "getting smaller" as you zoom out, it just "appears" that way because you are getting closer and further from something. Just like someone earlier mentioned, if you put a cup on a table in front of you, and you put your face right in front of it, it looks huge, when you back your head away, or even walk a few feet away, the cup magically looks really small... yet it never changed it's size. If you look at it, the text really is staying the same, it's just a matter of how close or far you are away from it. I guess the only really "unrealistic" thing is the fact that IRL, the pilot is kinda strapped in pretty tight and can't move his head in closer or move it further away very much.... But either way. I was under the impression that's how the real HUD worked in the real plane, if it's not, then it should be lol. I like it A TON better when I can pull my head away from the hud a bit to get a bigger field of view for better SA and still be able to read whats on my HUD.

Edited February 20, 2011 by TRoe13

[popov]

thx TRoe13, you understood what I meant... it is exacly what I was looking for. Guys... try to understand what people are actually saying... not twisting words or anything... anyway...didn't want to start a war here...lol :D

 

The HUD is just a piece of glass that is receiving a laser projection of digital information, so its like an image painted on the glass...so if your head is moving toward it, it get closer, and yes it tends to get larger since your nose is close to it....anyway, you get it now I guess what I meant in the first place.

 

cherck this :

http://www.headupflight.net/album/HUD%20Appontage.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-16_hud_020410_09.jpg

 

Thx again all for your helping llights! :D

Edited February 20, 2011 by popov
corrections

[effte]

so its like an image painted on the glass...so if your head is moving toward it, it get closer, and yes it tends to get larger since your nose is close to it....

 

Exactly what it isn't, and what it doesn't.

 

Oh well, as long as you are happy... :)

 

 

 

An attempt at a detailed explanation

 

In that last pic of yours, with the F-16, you see the boresight cross slightly left of centreline. The boresight cross indicates where the nose is pointing. With me so far?

 

This means the cross is seen slightly left of the centreline of the HUD, obviously. Now, if it was "like an image painted on the glass", if you moved your head right, the boresight cross would move left as referenced against the horizon. Still with me?

 

However, the spot the nose is pointing at wouldn't have changed due to you moving your head. Only manoeuvring the jet can do that. In other words, something would be terribly wrong. Imagine the same thing, but with a target or steerpoint marker. The target marker would only be superimposed on the target if you had your head in exactly the right spot - kind of useless.

 

What really happens is that as you move your head to the right, the boresight cross stays in the same position as referenced against the horizon. Similarly, a target or steerpoint marker stays fixed, superimposed on the target or steerpoint.

 

This is the true magic of a HUD.

 

In order to achieve this, the boresight cross, markers etc - in fact, all of the HUD symbology - have to move as referenced against the HUD itself when you move your head around. Move your head right, and it moves right on the HUD. Move your head up, and it moves up. All to stay in a fixed position relative to the outside world.

 

Now, if you had one target on the left side of the HUD and one target on the right side of the HUD, each with a target marker on the HUD superimposed on them, and you moved your head closer to the HUD - what would happen?

 

The target markers would have to stay on top of the targets while the HUD itself would fill a larger portion of your field of view, right?

 

It is then easy to see that, as compared to the HUD, the symbology would shrink - in order to remain the same size as compared to the outside world.

 

The outside world remains the same size on your monitor even if you move your virtual head fore and aft by a few inches in your virtual cockpit. Thus, moving your virtual head fore and aft cannot change the size of the HUD symbology as displayed on your monitor, as it still has to be the same size as your view of the corresponding part of the outside world. Only changing your FOV (zoom) can change the size of the HUD symbology on your monitor.

 

And that is exactly how the HUDs behave in the DCS simulations.

Edited February 20, 2011 by effte

[mic1184]

The HUD is just a piece of glass that is receiving a laser projection of digital information, so its like an image painted on the glass...so if your head is moving toward it, it get closer, and yes it tends to get larger since your nose is close to it....anyway, you get it now I guess what I meant in the first place.

 

wrong it's not as if it's a picture ON the glass. as has been said a million times before ;-)

Edited February 20, 2011 by mic1184

[hassata]

Well this is weird. After checking this thread, I looked up at my TV and saw this:

 

MNbWUoUbtC8

 

Edit: Check out the name of the waypoint :D.

Edited February 20, 2011 by hassata

[ФрогФут]

The HUD is just a piece of glass that is receiving a laser projection of digital information

Cathode ray tube, actually, not a laser. Less commonly - LCD matrix.

I do not know any deflector to work with thin laser ray and the field of view as modern HUDs have.

The cathode ray tube is in focal plane, so the image will be in eternity. So the pilot could see the outside world and the hud sharp without reaccommodating his eyes. And if you move your head half a meter forward eternity will remain eternity.;)

[effte]

Cathode ray tube, actually, not a laser. Less commonly - LCD matrix.

I do not know any deflector to work with thin laser ray and the field of view as modern HUDs have.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are HUDs operating with a laser for drawing the symbology. I'm unsure about the details, but the new colour ones would obviously be of this variety.

[ФрогФут]

To the best of my knowledge, there are HUDs operating with a laser for drawing the symbology.

I heard only of HMDs with laser imaging.

Though it might be possible if optical system has relatively high magnification.

Also AFAIR coherent light is not very good for eyes.

 

but the new colour ones would obviously be of this variety.

That would require a multi wavelength laser, probably. Anything to read on that?

Edited February 20, 2011 by ФрогФут

[effte]

That would require a multi wavelength laser, probably. Anything to read on that?

 

Or three lasers... ;)

 

Negative on the reading material. As I said, my own knowledge is sketchy. No colour in the ones I've been fortunate to mess with, even though they were rather advanced compared to most of what you'll find out there.

 

As the CRT driven huds are not rasterizing but rather steer the electron beam to draw the symbology (i e vector graphics), CRT driven colour HUDs are all but impossible to create.

 

The fact that our DCS HUDs are rasterized (obviously ;)) whereas the real ones are not is one of the reasons for ours being harder to read I think. Real ones have virtually infinite resolution, only really limited by the size of the beam and the granularity of the phosphor.