AI wingmen: What are they good for? A tip...

[Bahger]

In their current state, AI wingmen can be a bit of a liability and they are not at their best around SAMs but they are a really valuable asset in one regard:

 

They can spot targets very effectively and at considerable distances. Make sure (in SP) you have your TAD NET settings at 01/01 because, especially in the absence of JTAC or briefed targets co-located with waypoints, whenever a wingman spots a target and calls it out, once you order him to attack it you can see his SPI on your TAD screen and can make it your own. This saves a lot of frustration in finding, identifying and prosecuting targets without the above-named aids.

 

Also remember that your #2 will not attack a target you might see until he sees it for himself and calls it out.

 

If you are fence-in, listen to your wingman's calls and, in the absence of a target of your own, have him attack a target he identifies so that you can use his SPI. Even if you do not go after the same individual target, the SPI will often lead you to other targets easily identifiable in the same location once you have slaved your TGP to it.

[Jinja]

Yeah, as soon as my wingman spots a ground target, I usually have him attack it, then as soon as I have his SPI appear on my TAD, I tell him to return to formation. Slave TGP. engage.

 

Q: Am I doing this right? It works, but I feel like I'm cheating for some reason.

[Bahger]

It's no cheat. With no radar in the Hog, target acquisition has to be all about sharing data. There are limits to the Mark-1 eyeball and JTAC can only be tasked to one individual target (although he'll call out others from Bullseye).

 

Perhaps the most realistic approach is not to call your #2 back into formation but to share his SPI and support his attack on the target. You are likely to find co-located targets on the run-in for you to prosecute.

[hassata]

It works, but I feel like I'm cheating for some reason.

 

Now what would Captain Kirk say to that?

[Ptroinks]

I'd also feel like I was cheating. The AI "vision" is so much better than any player's vision would be, so It feels almost as bad as having labels on...

[REL]

I'd also feel like I was cheating. The AI "vision" is so much better than any player's vision would be, so It feels almost as bad as having labels on...

 

+1

 

Also the Mav target acquire and fire rate

[Bahger]

It's probably a deliberate choice, which I respect and do not regard as a cheat. When it's easier, as it probably is, to spot targets in real life circumstances than it is going pixel-hunting in a sim, it makes the sim more playable to have slightly tweaked AI assistance.

 

Having said that, my golden rule of mission design in A-10 is to locate targets either (i) via co-location with mission waypoints, (ii) via JTAC/FAC (iii) via coordinates given by AWACS or by scripted message. Expecting players to have nothing at their disposal but eyeballs on a computer monitor is frustrating and bad mission design, in my opinion. And using flight members' datalinked target information is not just legitimate but realistic (even if their eyesight is a little tweaked to compensate for limitations in the player's visual acuity in a simulation).

[Bahger]

Also the Mav target acquire and fire rate

Well that's true enough! I wish I could rifle off three Mavericks at three separate targets having only acquired them on the TGP at <8 nm out!

[jspec3]

cool, thanks for the tip! Hadn't thought about the fact that I'd be able to see his SPI on my TAD.

 

I've recently been trying to 'ween' myself off labels (have them adjusted now so they don't show up very far away and are just little dots "."). so I'll take any help I can get!

[andysim]

I dont use labels at all now unless its a MP mission thats got labels turned on =). I figured it was a bad habit that needed to stop asap. Yes I can spend ages hunting for targets but I find labels just give to much away.

 

I have awful vision (40% reduced vision in left eye from birth) and would never be able to fly solo in anything thats not a simulator so im stuck with a 2D monitor. Any help from a 3rd party ie wingman/zoom/Jtac etc is welcome.

[Bahger]

Yeah, labels are a whole different level of help, they involve no use of aircraft systems and should probably be avoided after you learn the basics. Target prosecution in A-10 is all about making maximum use of your sensors, especially the TGP, and learning how you can shuffle between them, handing off a slaved SPI to the appropriate weapons system targeting screen. But it's also about the teamwork involved in datalinking, amongst flight members and JTAC assets. The A-10 does not operate in a "one Hog driver against the world" scenario.

 

Another small tip is to switch to EXP 1 or 2 in your TAD to hook a datalink symbol. This means that the moving map will slew with your cursor movement and not re-scale or rotate the map, uncommanded, to keep your a/c at the center. It's much easier to "grab" targets this way, especially if they are at middle to long-distance from your own position

[REL]

It's probably a deliberate choice, which I respect and do not regard as a cheat. When it's easier, as it probably is, to spot targets in real life circumstances than it is going pixel-hunting in a sim, it makes the sim more playable to have slightly tweaked AI assistance.

 

Having said that, my golden rule of mission design in A-10 is to locate targets either (i) via co-location with mission waypoints, (ii) via JTAC/FAC (iii) via coordinates given by AWACS or by scripted message. Expecting players to have nothing at their disposal but eyeballs on a computer monitor is frustrating and bad mission design, in my opinion. And using flight members' datalinked target information is not just legitimate but realistic (even if their eyesight is a little tweaked to compensate for limitations in the player's visual acuity in a simulation).

 

 

I think the AI should and can be tweaked to compensate for limitations and be humanlike too, the current state feels like you are flying with superman on your wing when it comes to AI vision.

 

A littel humanity wouldn't hurt here.

[aaron886]

Yeah it's crazy how there's no "humanity" in the AI. It almost feels like a desktop computer simulating a real life wingman... :(

[Dr Zaius]

Sure it's a bit of a cheat :music_whistling: but I changed the settings in labels so I get a little red dot for ground vehicals but that's it, no distance or names just a dot.

 

The way I see it (no pun intended) the mark one eye ball is limited in any sim, I therefore have a red dot that appears at scalable distance which for me makes up for sim eyesight, It's then down to me to examine each dot using the aircrafts sensors and formulate an attack plan from there:joystick:

[REL]

Yeah it's crazy how there's no "humanity" in the AI. It almost feels like a desktop computer simulating a real life wingman... :(

 

Wow ... yeah you are absolutely right ... that is the goal !!! :doh:

Edited March 21, 2011 by REL

[TwoLate]

One tip I notice when you enter your target zone start out at a high altitude, lets say 15 k. Tell your wingman to attack with mavericks or GBU and he will stay at 15k. What ever your altitude is when you call for attack he will stay even if you go down. Unless he has to use guns or CCIP. This way you can keep him out of harms way. Actually with some practice AI can be real effective.

Edited March 21, 2011 by TwoLate

[jspec3]

hey Stanger that's a good tip too!

 

I was just thinking of posting a thread asking if maybe your wingy could be told a "hard deck", it's disheartening to watch him get so low that everyone in the world starts shooting at him.

[LiveBait]

Sure it's a bit of a cheat :music_whistling: but I changed the settings in labels so I get a little red dot for ground vehicals but that's it, no distance or names just a dot.

 

The way I see it (no pun intended) the mark one eye ball is limited in any sim, I therefore have a red dot that appears at scalable distance which for me makes up for sim eyesight, It's then down to me to examine each dot using the aircrafts sensors and formulate an attack plan from there:joystick:

 

Same here, but I used to change the color to dark blue instead of red as this makes it a little harder to see and do it for both sides. I only recently went no labels and my fun factor and mission duration time doubled immediately. It definately adds to the immersion when you know theres a sam down there, but you cannot find it, and your wondering if you've drifted into its envelope Sweaty palms expecting a launch tone

[RodBorza]

One tip I notice when you enter your target zone start out at a high altitude, lets say 15 k. Tell your wingman to attack with mavericks or GBU and he will stay at 15k. What ever your altitude is when you call for attack he will stay even if you go down. Unless he has to use guns or CCIP. This way you can keep him out of harms way. Actually with some practice AI can be real effective.

 

+1! Nice tip.

Helps a lot with Wingie survivability.

[hassata]

I changed the settings in labels so I get a little red dot for ground vehicals but that's it, no distance or names just a dot.

 

Can you indicate the values to change?

 

Thanks

[BlackRazor]

One tip I notice when you enter your target zone start out at a high altitude, lets say 15 k. Tell your wingman to attack with mavericks or GBU and he will stay at 15k. What ever your altitude is when you call for attack he will stay even if you go down. Unless he has to use guns or CCIP. This way you can keep him out of harms way. Actually with some practice AI can be real effective.

 

For some reason it's the opposite for me: I've tried twice what you said in two different missions and in both cases the wingman dropped down to less than 2000 feet and overflew the SAM/AAA site. You can guess how it ended.

[TwoLate]

For some reason it's the opposite for me: I've tried twice what you said in two different missions and in both cases the wingman dropped down to less than 2000 feet and overflew the SAM/AAA site. You can guess how it ended.

 

Did you wait until you got the acknowledgement from the flight that they are attacking before you go down? When I select them to attack at my spi with mavericks or Guided bombs they will stay up ther for a level flight. They stay up there. After the attack they may holler rejoin, then they will come to you. I have watched them above evading missles with contrails.

[BlackRazor]

Did you wait until you got the acknowledgement from the flight that they are attacking before you go down? When I select them to attack at my spi with mavericks or Guided bombs they will stay up ther for a level flight. They stay up there. After the attack they may holler rejoin, then they will come to you. I have watched them above evading missles with contrails.

 

Yesterday I tried in a different mission and the wingman stayed at his current altitude when attacking with GBUs and Mavericks; dunno what's going on, I will try again and see if there's a reason why they sometimes drop down to Angels 2 when using missiles.

[RichardG]

AI does not know how to use CBUs at altitude. They always dive down low for CCIP attack, instead of using a CCRP at altitude. There needs to be a way to tell wingman what kind of attack profile to use.

Edited March 23, 2011 by RichardG

[Smeghead]

cool, thanks for the tip! Hadn't thought about the fact that I'd be able to see his SPI on my TAD.

 

I've recently been trying to 'ween' myself off labels (have them adjusted now so they don't show up very far away and are just little dots "."). so I'll take any help I can get!

 

That's interesting. How do you do that? I'd like to modify when labels appear. Like only when you are within 3 miles or less would be good. Also having it only dots would be super. It makes it more realistic while using your TGP from that point forward. Eyeballs can see higher resolution than this sim so I'm assuming people would be able to spot targets long range with their eyeballs better than the game would indicate.