Glideslope bars not appearing on ADI.

[Itkovian]

Salutations.

 

I just did a random flight, flying from Sukumi (pardon the spelling) and then diverting to Sochi (I believe that's what it was... it had no TCN station, but it did have ILS) to do a bit of practice landing in light fog.

 

Everytihng was going well, the ILS was set to the proper frequency, and I had switched NAV mode to ILS (on the panel behind the stick, pardon the lack of technical terminology). The HSI was responding properly as was the glideslope "notch" to the right of the ADI, but as I was coming in to runway 60 I realized the yellow "bars" that sweep across the ADI were not showing.

 

So I was wondering: did I miss something that caused them to stay tucked away? Do they only show when there is a TACAN signal?

 

I landed without difficulty, but I am rather perplexed by this. Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

Itkovian

[WynnTTr]

Just to cover all the bases - did you turn on your ils?

[MTFDarkEagle]

And did you select ILS just behind your primary flight stick? That is the NMCP (Navigation Mode Selector Panel)

[Scratchy]

There's also the Able/Stow ADI Localizer Bar switch. This is on the NMCP (Navigation Mode Selector Panel) and must be set to Able (enable?) to see the bars. Usually, it is set to Stow in most missions.

[Itkovian]

ILS was turned on, and it was selected behind the stick.

 

I will check if it was stowed. It was the "Free Flight - Ramp Start" mission, to be exact.

 

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

Yup, it was stowed by default. That helps then. :)

 

Another question, then: is there any mode where the ILS info is repeated on the HUD? It seems rather inconvenient to go heads down just to watch the ILS when there's a perfectly good HUD available. :)

 

Itkovian

[Zenra]

There is no ILS mode on the HUD, but the instruments are laid out nicely for instrument approaches. Just adjust your view so you see the HUD with the velocity vector readable and so you also see the ADI and at least the top of the HSI. Fly the needles, cross-checking airspeed and heading at intervals and adjusting power and pitch as needed. Once you have the plane settled with the velocity vector at about -3 degrees on the pitch ladder (and centered on your touchdown point, once the runway becomes visible) make only fine adjustments. You'll land like a pro every time.

[Itkovian]

Aaah, -3 on pitch ladder... that'll help. I knew to keep it on touchdown point, though wasn't what the proper pitch was.

 

And as I recall, from my F4 days, when on final you control speed with the stick, and position on the glideslope with the throttle, right? It's been a while since I landed a fixed wing jet (I've mostly been flying the Black Shark or Spitfires lately). :)

 

My landings have been safe so far (no damage, tires fine, etc.), but I know they are hardly professional, so those pointers are useful. :)

 

That said, one reason an ILS HUD repeater would be great is when landing in 0 vis, IFR.... though granted I guess at that point I should be flying heads down anyway and landing by the needles.

 

Itkovian

Edited April 1, 2011 by Itkovian

[GGTharos]

No, at that point you should be diverting to some place that meets visibility minimums for landing. AFAIK real pilots do not land in zero visibility - attempts to do so end in broken planes and probably lost lives.

 

That said, one reason an ILS HUD repeater would be great is when landing in 0 vis, IFR.... though granted I guess at that point I should be flying heads down anyway and landing by the needles.

 

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

No, at that point you should be diverting to some place that meets visibility minimums for landing. AFAIK real pilots do not land in zero visibility - attempts to do so end in broken planes and probably lost lives.

 

Well then, I stand corrected. Good to know.

 

And remember a bit more from my F4 days, I should be using the stick to maintain AOA (so that velocity vector is at -3 pitch), course corrections, and using the throttle to remain on glideslope, correct?

 

Itkovian

[genbrien]

No, at that point you should be diverting to some place that meets visibility minimums for landing. AFAIK real pilots do not land in zero visibility - attempts to do so end in broken planes and probably lost lives.

 

depend of the CAT ofthe ILS ;)

 

As long as you have a normal ILS(cat2, wich bring you 200' of the ground) then if you fly it by the needles there is 90% chance that you see the runway(usually the ATC will put the runway's lights at max intensity...)

[GGTharos]

Yep, but if you do NOT see it, you go around or divert. You have minimums for safe landing.

[airdog]

CAT IIIc.......is for aircraft that have a 0/0 autoland capability...the airfield has to have the correct ils equipment also.....this is usually associated with large commercial aircraft though not military aircraft. Though current aircraft carrier aircraft can do it but they also use a data link system to get pitching deck info.

Edited April 1, 2011 by airdog

[Itkovian]

I remember meeting an AF pilot in DC once, who told me that (he believed) Navy pilots usually landed their night traps using autopilot.

 

I personally thought that was strange and might be just a bit of inter-service rivalry, since it does not jive from what I had read and seen (like on PBS' carrier series), plus it makes little sense. You'd want to land manually as much as possible, so you're in practice for when you suffer an AP failure. Seems to me any automatic landing capability is there for emergencies only (pilot injury/illness, for example).

 

A non-sequitur, I know, but this topic reminded me of that encounter all of a sudden.

 

Itkovian

[GGTharos]

Not to mention the A-10C is not capable of this :D

[Itkovian]

Of course.

 

Though I dare say the autopilot function is still extremely useful when you need to do some heads down work. The A-10A must have been fun to fly. :)

 

Itkovian

[GGTharos]

Keep in mind that the A-10A got the LASTE with LAAP as well a long time ago, AFAIK.

 

But yes, everything before a certain time was very manual :D

[airdog]

I remember meeting an AF pilot in DC once, who told me that (he believed) Navy pilots usually landed their night traps using autopilot.

 

I personally thought that was strange and might be just a bit of inter-service rivalry, since it does not jive from what I had read and seen (like on PBS' carrier series), plus it makes little sense. You'd want to land manually as much as possible, so you're in practice for when you suffer an AP failure. Seems to me any automatic landing capability is there for emergencies only (pilot injury/illness, for example).

 

A non-sequitur, I know, but this topic reminded me of that encounter all of a sudden.

 

Itkovian

A good majority(if not all) of Naval pilots do use a form of autopilot on carrier landings. They use the autothrottle function but hand fly the aircraft so all they have to worry about is lineup and glideslope and the aircraft autothrottles will maintain AoA/onspeed condition for the carrier landing. I've heard that if the pilot is doing the throttles himself it is usually very apparent in his approach. During a naval pilots yearly Carrier qualification he is required to use several different types of conditions to get onto the boat which covers all scenarios of system failures that could make it difficult to land on the carrier IE...autothrottle failure and such. Remember that almost an entire career of a pilots life is training in his aircraft....combat missions are few and far between prior to the middle east falling apart and America deciding its going to be the world police...though that is whole different discussion ;)

Edited April 1, 2011 by airdog

[Itkovian]

Autothrottle? Interesting, very interesting.

 

Though really, I would think they'd try and land manually as often as possible, if only to stay ready for their yearly qualifications. But really, you wouldn't want to be rusty the one time you actually need it. :)

 

I wonder if they take autothrottle into consideration when rating a pilot's landing score (which is extremely important as part of their performance rating, from what I understand. Miss enough of those and you're in trouble). For example, if they score higher when going completely manual.

 

Itkovian

[hassata]

The Hornet has an autoland capability to be used in bad weather. Ironically, the system has problems when the visibility is down.

[genbrien]

The Hornet has an autoland capability to be used in bad weather. Ironically, the system has problems when the visibility is down.

ehhh what ?:music_whistling::huh:

[effte]

There's also the Able/Stow ADI Localizer Bar switch. This is on the NMCP (Navigation Mode Selector Panel) and must be set to Able (enable?) to see the bars. Usually, it is set to Stow in most missions.

 

Unless the system was changed from the A-10A in such a way that functionality was lost and instruments duplicated instead (i e not very likely), the ADI bars should be what they were in the betas - command steering bars and not ILS CDI repeaters.

 

I'd strongly suggest using the GP needle on the left of the ADI and the HSI CDI localizer needle, or chances are you will have to relearn once the proper functionality is re-implemented.

 

Command steering bars are effectively an autopilot system, using the pilot to activate the controls. Needle above center tells you you need to pitch up to center the glide path. As you pitch up, it centers - even if you are still below the GP.

 

No official word on this though.

 

Cheers,

Fred

[Scratchy]

Unless the system was changed from the A-10A in such a way that functionality was lost and instruments duplicated instead (i e not very likely), the ADI bars should be what they were in the betas - command steering bars and not ILS CDI repeaters.

 

I'd strongly suggest using the GP needle on the left of the ADI and the HSI CDI localizer needle, or chances are you will have to relearn once the proper functionality is re-implemented.

 

...

 

I completely agree with this advice. You will end up chasing if you use the ADI Localizer bars. The localizer bars are very sensitive, or put another way: a full deviation with the localizer bars is only (about) 1/2 full deflections using the HSI and GP indicators.

 

What I generally do is use both. I use the HSI and GP indicators to get 'in the pipe' and then monitor the localizer bars to monitor whether I'm drifting high/low or left/right.

[Itkovian]

I completely agree with this advice. You will end up chasing if you use the ADI Localizer bars. The localizer bars are very sensitive, or put another way: a full deviation with the localizer bars is only (about) 1/2 full deflections using the HSI and GP indicators.

 

What I generally do is use both. I use the HSI and GP indicators to get 'in the pipe' and then monitor the localizer bars to monitor whether I'm drifting high/low or left/right.

 

 

That's aobut what I've been doing. I appreciate their higher sensitivity, as it is useful for slight corrections.

 

I do wish the bloody things were on the HUD though, like on the Viper. I believe I will email my displeasure to fairchild republic and DEMAND it be rectified post-haste. :)

 

Itkovian

[S D]

Agreed ^^ give em hell... :)

 

Personally i found the Su33 ILS system on Lockon to be very good with the HUD indication for speed/alt. Was possible to do zero vis carrier landings (i appreciate the FM in lockon wasnt as realistic as we have now, but if th RL system is similar then its very well designed.