Wingman Spending Mav's

[REL]

Hey guys

 

Scroll to 2:12 and 7:23 :

 

In this video every time a wingman attack with mav's he will shoot two on the same target ? after 3 seconds ? why ? isn't that a better way to spend those missiles ?

 

Just trying to understand the logic if there is any ... and if it's actually true to life ...

[KillaALF]

They are shooting at different targets, 1 maverick each. Note the first description in the video there's 2x SA-9 and 2x Zeus.

[REL]

They are shooting at different targets, 1 maverick each. Note the first description in the video there's 2x SA-9 and 2x Zeus.

 

Within 2 seconds ? Is't very quick for a simulated human ?

[jiblet]

A simulated trained A10 pilot? He probably knows how to use mark points... Do you? :)

[RodBorza]

Within 2 seconds ? Is't very quick for a simulated human ?

 

Yep. There are various threads already on the "superhuman" capabilities of the AI wingman. They tend to detect targets way before you, and to attack them very efficiently (sometimes, too efficiently).

[Spectre_USA]

I wish the super-efficient wingies would saddle up on my wing.

 

Mine usually tend to describe what is about to kill them.

 

"Oh look, there's some AAA. How cool, a flappin' SAM." Then he proceeds to catch

a little of each, and punches out.

 

Had one this afternoon describe his site-seeing, then proceed to overfly an announced

Shilka, and then lob a Maverick at a SAM from about a mile, and got torn up by both.

 

This was after I had him anchor 10 miles from the FEBA, took a couple of runs on

my own to thin the herd for him, but he still plodded right into the worst stuff

available, when asked to eliminate air defenses.

 

I guess by trying to make them use up their ammo...

[Frostiken]

Jeez where are you people getting these AIs?

 

I told my flight, while 9nm out from a row of T-80s, to attack them with Mavericks. I had just performed the same maneuver and managed to expend all my AGM-65s in one go without getting closer than 4nm, figured for the 'superhuman' AI it'd be a cinch.

 

The wall of lead they flew themselves into, capable of only releasing Mavericks until RIGHT ON TOP OF THE TARGET, was amusing at best. One blew up and died instantly, one escaped mostly unscathed, and one seemed to have a damaged radio or something because he ignored me and just flew in controlled circles until he ran out of gas and died. In the end, three A-10s each armed with four AGM-65Ds, crossing 9nm on a row of 15-20 T-80s in the open, managed to only fire off four or five missiles and two ended up dead to do it.

[Wags]

Without a track we cannot see what you are doing wrong. I just ran a very quick and dirty 1107 test of me a with a flight of 4 against 20 excellent T-80s. End result... 20 dead tanks and four very alive A-10s. Hope this may help you.

Piece of cake.trk

[Wags]

Attached track is me and one wingman against all excellent 3 Zeus, 1 SA-9, and 1 SA-13. No friendly losses or even got shot at.

 

Remember that the AI will correctly prioritize SAMs or AAA at the SPI area.

 

Hope the attached track may help.

 

 

 

I wish the super-efficient wingies would saddle up on my wing.

 

Mine usually tend to describe what is about to kill them.

 

"Oh look, there's some AAA. How cool, a flappin' SAM." Then he proceeds to catch

a little of each, and punches out.

 

Had one this afternoon describe his site-seeing, then proceed to overfly an announced

Shilka, and then lob a Maverick at a SAM from about a mile, and got torn up by both.

 

This was after I had him anchor 10 miles from the FEBA, took a couple of runs on

my own to thin the herd for him, but he still plodded right into the worst stuff

available, when asked to eliminate air defenses.

 

I guess by trying to make them use up their ammo...

SEAD.trk

Edited April 7, 2011 by Wags

[mtuckner]

I guess the trick is to use SPI and only use Attack With and not just generalized attack.

[636_Castle]

It's not that hard to get off 3 or so AGMs like that. Just use a weapon profile so it automatically picks the next maverick. Slew, fire, slew, fire.

[zamboni]

Matt, if you are still peeking in on this thread I have some questions for ya about wingman commands and target management.

 

#1) I looked at both of the tracks you posted above and also looked at the latest video you posted on YT. The first thing that jumped out to me that you did in the video but DID NOT do in the .trks is that you broadcasted your SPI in the video but did not in the .trks you posted. How is your wingman getting your SPI if you arent broadcasting it? Or in the .trks was the wingman just targeting the closest armor that he can find?

 

#2) To follow up on the end of 1 above, just how far will your wingman search around your SPI for targets to attack? I ask this because in the first .trk you posted, you had something like 20 tanks. When you marked SPI, and instructed your wingman to attack, you marked it on the farthest target on the left. You then changed to like the 4th tank in and then attacked that one on your own. When your wingman attacked he ended up targeting what looks like the last 4 tanks on the RIGHT, which were probably about 1-2 miles away from the point where you had your SPI when you ordered your wingman to attack.

 

I also ask this because in the Devil's cross first mission, you have two targets, JTAC tasks you to attack tanks on say the Western Column. During push from the IP, I found the right tank columns and then set my TGP to the shilkas that were guarding the column. I ordered the wingman to attack AAA at SPI with Mavs, and he promptly went after the AAA guarding the OTHEr column which was at least 5+ miles away from my SPI. At the time and during the wingman's ingress, the AAA was closer to him so I am wondering if the marking with the SPI is working the way it should or are the wingmen going after the closest targets they can find to attack.

[RodBorza]

I guess the trick is to use SPI and only use Attack With and not just generalized attack.

 

Said it all, brother. Giving the "Atack Ground Units" general command is no joy. But if you broadcast SPI, and give the "Attack Armor With Mavericks From the Nortgh (or Default)" thing, they (the wingies) work pretty nicely.

[winz]

The main problem is that on some missions (especialy the georgian hammer campaign) you just don't have the ammunition to sanatize the area before engaging tanks. You, as a player, just fly high to avoid any AAA and IR sams threats. And flying high is something the AI just isn't competent to do. Especialy when it comes to CBUs, because, since FC days, they cannot dive bomb, they straight lvl bomb at low altittude and low speed. They will descent to 1,5k feet, slow down to about 180knots and they fly like this for several miles before finally getting to target.

 

edit: Btw, Love watching these vids, keem them comming :)

Edited April 7, 2011 by winz

[Madog]

Hey,

 

i think the AI targets what it has discovered. And while the AI tends to discover stuff at far distances, it by far does not instantly discover everything instantly. Which means, while you see the tank you want the AI to target, the AI does not necessarly knows about this specific target. I also think, that if you prompt the AI to attack at a certain SPI (or your, or its current position for that matter) it does not engage a search around this point but rather attacks what it already has discovered and is of the highest priority and nearest to that position.

That would explain why the AI might fly into AAA or SAM enagement zones.. it may simply not yet know about it. Or why it might attack seemingly random targets.

What i would like to see is a way to tell the AI about certain targets, maybe by locking them with a SPI (might as well be padlock, too) and give them the coordinates, boardcast SPI if available or simple describe the relative position from your own. Also i would like to see the AI comunicate what it is doing.. for example a voice message telling you where it found a target to engage. The actual event of finding targets is already broadcasted via radio "...mud spike", you know the message. But the current implementation does not allow you as player to identify what was found where, so you can not properly decide if the attack command you will give to the AI will be executed in the way you intend.

That in itself is not a bad thing either, the game is greatly enhanced by a measure of uncertainty, i think. But i would like to see a way to minimize this by better communication options, so the right communication (means receiving and distributing information, as opposed to just giving orders) may profit your effiency.

 

This may be extend to further status messages that may be queried from AI wingman... like "what weapons do you have left" or "what damage did you take..." or "how much fuel do you have left?" .

Also it would be great to induce intention to the AI ... for example "execute stand off attack" or "stay above / below XXX ft AGL", or to get back on topic "attack targets at my SPI, not farther away than x miles" or "attack south-most tank in column....".

 

Certain AI communication options are already great, but especially communication (mind you not only giving orders) with the AI Wingman has quite some room left for improvment.

 

Im quite thrilled to see whats down the road for DCS in this area

Edited April 7, 2011 by Madog

[Wags]

1- Yes, it was my mistake for not broadcasting SPI. Was in a rush and forgot. In such a case they revert to the standard Engage command and task themselves based on what they detect.

 

2- They will target the GROUP nearest the sent SPI assuming same priority level. In the case of the track I provided, all of the tanks are part of the same group.

 

Matt, if you are still peeking in on this thread I have some questions for ya about wingman commands and target management.

 

#1) I looked at both of the tracks you posted above and also looked at the latest video you posted on YT. The first thing that jumped out to me that you did in the video but DID NOT do in the .trks is that you broadcasted your SPI in the video but did not in the .trks you posted. How is your wingman getting your SPI if you arent broadcasting it? Or in the .trks was the wingman just targeting the closest armor that he can find?

 

#2) To follow up on the end of 1 above, just how far will your wingman search around your SPI for targets to attack? I ask this because in the first .trk you posted, you had something like 20 tanks. When you marked SPI, and instructed your wingman to attack, you marked it on the farthest target on the left. You then changed to like the 4th tank in and then attacked that one on your own. When your wingman attacked he ended up targeting what looks like the last 4 tanks on the RIGHT, which were probably about 1-2 miles away from the point where you had your SPI when you ordered your wingman to attack.

 

I also ask this because in the Devil's cross first mission, you have two targets, JTAC tasks you to attack tanks on say the Western Column. During push from the IP, I found the right tank columns and then set my TGP to the shilkas that were guarding the column. I ordered the wingman to attack AAA at SPI with Mavs, and he promptly went after the AAA guarding the OTHEr column which was at least 5+ miles away from my SPI. At the time and during the wingman's ingress, the AAA was closer to him so I am wondering if the marking with the SPI is working the way it should or are the wingmen going after the closest targets they can find to attack.

[Wags]

The main problem is that on some missions (especialy the georgian hammer campaign) you just don't have the ammunition to sanatize the area before engaging tanks. You, as a player, just fly high to avoid any AAA and IR sams threats. And flying high is something the AI just isn't competent to do. Especialy when it comes to CBUs, because, since FC days, they cannot dive bomb, they straight lvl bomb at low altittude and low speed. They will descent to 1,5k feet, slow down to about 180knots and they fly like this for several miles before finally getting to target.

 

edit: Btw, Love watching these vids, keem them comming :)

 

Use the on-call SEAD flights, that's what they are there for.

[Wags]

Said it all, brother. Giving the "Atack Ground Units" general command is no joy. But if you broadcast SPI, and give the "Attack Armor With Mavericks From the Nortgh (or Default)" thing, they (the wingies) work pretty nicely.

 

Unless I have no SA on where enemy forces are, I ALWAYS use the Engage With commands.

[zamboni]

1- Yes, it was my mistake for not broadcasting SPI. Was in a rush and forgot. In such a case they revert to the standard Engage command and task themselves based on what they detect.

 

2- They will target the GROUP nearest the sent SPI assuming same priority level. In the case of the track I provided, all of the tanks are part of the same group.

 

Nice to know.

 

I made a test mission last night with 4 different groups of T-80s with each group ~ 5 miles apart and the wingie attacked the correct group each and every time.....then I realized that the what you posted in 2 above was probably the reason.

 

as for what you said in #1, does the AI revert to standard engage logic if you have a different Group NetID? Reason why I ask is because of the datalink bug concerning JTAC targetting, I think I sometimes forget to change the Ownship/Group ID back to the correct numbers after receiving the target from JTAC.

 

This also may explain some of my wingman behavior that I am seeing if I assign him to attack my SPI, but he defaults to the standard engage logic because our NetIDs are different.

[RodBorza]

Unless I have no SA on where enemy forces are, I ALWAYS use the Engage With commands.

 

good to knoe that. Other important info was to know that the AI will attack only what they have detected; unless you tell them what to attack. :smartass: