In over my head?

[flybye]

Hi all. First post here and considering A-10. I got a bit overwhelmed here when I saw the cockpit some of you guys sport, though. I was like wow :fear: How am I supposed to compete against that! Very impressive setups, though.

 

I did a lot of sims back in the mid-late 80s with Jet and other various flight sims. Of course, with the introduction of Doom & Quake, FPSers consumed me. But I've always had space for a good sim in my heart. Wing Commander..X3..Tie Fighter vs X-Wing. Throughout the years, I've noticed one thing of me. I either like something really Sci-fi or something really challenging. Give me something with both and I'll be in heaven!

 

I'm in odd ball, though. I hate these "modern warfare" FPSers. Just too boring for me. Walk around with a gun, get capped, wait 15s, rinse and repeat. I loved Unreal Tournament 2004 and was even in a clan for it going nearly 4 years back in the day. I need something different and unique with lots of objectives.

 

Although this is modern warfare, it has that element of micromanaging your equipment. I simply loved the thread here of someone's A-10 being shot, fuel was disrupted in some way, and they had to manually prime and restart one of their engines in mid flight. First thing I said out loud after reading that was "Yeah!"

 

A-10 looks unique in the sense of how the sim offers you a plane that must be managed and kept alive during all sorts of scenarios. It's complex and I love that.

 

But is it too complex for me? I'd be a somewhat casual gamer to it and am afraid I'd have to reread the manual every time I want to fly out. I'm not hardcore enough to cut out my own flight seat with a butter knife, but am pretty sure to invest in a good stick & throttle. My PC would not be dedicated to it as there are still other games I like to play. And I'm looking for long term, too. I've had too many games recently with a very little price/playability ratio. I've logged nearly 3000+ hours with Unreal Tournament 2004. I can be in the long hall if I like it enough. I would probably play about 5-10 hours a week.

 

But how much of a disadvantage would I be at if I were to fly against one of these guys with 4 touch screens for the entire cockpit?

 

I tried Hawkx, but felt it was far too gimmicky for me.

[nomdeplume]

You'll be in for a long learning curve, no doubt. But if you enjoy learning about gadgetry in detail, then you'll probably find learning to be enjoyable. If you're willing to spend at least a week or two learning the systems before you even shoot something, then I think you should definitely give it a shot.

 

Edit: just remembered you can actually play with simplified avionics etc. if you wish. That can make it easier to get in to, but if your goal is to fly it 'properly' then I think you're probably better off just jumping in the deep end. The 'game mode' is a bit of an odd beast, as you can use it to remove a lot of the limitations that prevent a single A-10 from taking on the entire Red Army in the real world, but it doesn't have specific missions where you're up against hordes. It does however mean that if you do find the learning curve frustrating, you can take a break and fly around shooting things in an easier environment.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about 'flying against' guys with 4 touch screens etc. The aircraft doesn't lend itself to adverserial engagements with other aircraft, so if you do go MP it will generally be cooperative. There's a wide range of hardware that people use, and most of the online squadrons are pretty accepting of whatever people can manage so long as they have the right attitude and make a genuine effort.

 

As for replayable, it kind of depends on your point of view. On the one hand, it's a single aircraft which is dedicated to the CAS/ground attack role. That kind of limits the types of missions you can perform, so if you're of the "if you've flown one CAS sortie you've flown them all" mindset, then the replayability might be limited after you're proficient with the aircraft. On the other hand, the mission editor and quick mission generator let you create an essentially infinite number of scenarios, so if you're of the mindset that you approach every sortie as a new challenge, then the replayability is essentially infinite. That goes doulbe (or triple) if you play multiplayer, since playing the same scenario with different people who have different skills and approaches can result in very different experiences.

Edited May 5, 2011 by nomdeplume
Remembered there's game mode...

[zamboni]

Jet was my first "flight sim" back on my old Atari 1040ST!

 

I have always loved flight sims, and probably have bought most of the combat flight sims I could find. I always loved the button mashing and the detailed systems, but for some reason the complexity of systems drove me off of many of the sims. Falcon 4.0, Janes F/A-18 were two that were like that. I loved it when IL-2 first came out because I could just get behind the stick and just fly :).

 

There is something about A-10C Warthog that is not like Falcon 4.0 and the other complex sims....Its complex, but not enough to drive me crazy. It may have something to do with being away for flight sims for a while, or it may have something to do with The comprehensive manual that lays out stuff out in an easy to understand manner.

 

Wait....I now remember why some of those other sims had a short shelf life for me. They basically required a decent joystick/throttle with programing PLUS you basically had to map every cockpit function to the joystick or remember way too many keyboard combinations. Head tracking with something like TrackIR PLUS CLICKABLE COCKPITS makes everything so much easier. Less fumbling with the keyboard. (Edit: when I mean clickable cockpits, I do not mean homemade cockpits, I mean the ability to use your mouse and look around at the cockpit on screen and be able to manipulate switches and buttons and dials with your mouse).

 

If you want to get into the A-10, at minimum I think a decent joystick/throttle/rudder setup PLUS something like TrackIR is necessary for full enjoyment. Touchscreens and stuff are nice, but I dont think you would be at a disadvantage at all....you may have an advantage because they may be too busy making sure their equipment is working right :)

Edited May 5, 2011 by zamboni

[jireland607]

Depending on how involved you want to get, you really do not need to use everything available to you. Probably the hardest thing for me was getting my head round the HOTAS. "DMS up long - TMS Aft short" and all of that... Once you get used to it, you will find that you actually only need a few of these commands, then you can build on them once you become more skilled.

 

As I have said on other threads, just start with a little to get you going. Use the TAD to guide you round the map. learn the TGP, this bit is essential, but again you only need to know how to slew and zoom in/out, then select a target. I would highly recommend getting near your target area, then using the 'Active Pause' function. You can sit there without worrying about flying while you practice using the TGP and weapons.

 

I would recommend starting with Mav's because

 

A: They are cool as you like

B: You can fire from around 6KM.

C: you can fire them without having to follow any targeting display on the HUD

 

Try learning the bare essentials and expand on it for example why spend 15mins learning how to start the plane if you will crash or get shot down within 5mins of takeoff? Start a quick mission from the runway instead, then as you get better start from the ramp and learn startup procedures (you can get this down to a couple of minutes fairly quickly without using a list)

 

Then learn other weapons etc... I did not use the CDU or radios at all for a while, just introduced myself to them as I mastered the other stuff.

 

There is a learning curve to this game, but its as steep as you want it to be. I really do recommend you stick to it as this is by far the best Sim I have ever played and it will not take you long to start smacking tanks with your Mav's. (love hitting F6 and following it onto target :))

[Frederf]

Thankfully online you're not really going to be playing against other human pilots. It's almost exclusively cooperative CAS missions.

 

There's plenty of complexity there but beyond the hurdles of getting your controls set and learning to start the jet (which really isn't that hard) CCIP MK82s and guns are so fast to learn it's not funny.

[Sinky]

I'd say the only thing that would put you at some sort of a disadvantage would be not having TrackIR. Having a HOTAS helps but it's not essential and will not give you a noticeable advantage in my eyes.

[GGTharos]

It gives you the noticeable advantage of operating the hog's avionics far more easily than without it.

[Sinky]

It gives you the noticeable advantage of operating the hog's avionics far more easily than without it.

 

I play with Cougar but I can't always take the time to set it up so I sometimes opt for using my cheap stick. I can operate the aircraft just as well with either of them, maybe it's the way I've mapped my cheap stick. When using the cheap stick all I use the keyboard for are the gear, flaps, selecting SOI and switching from narrow to wide. I also use the keyboard for modifiers since I map all hats to one hat control.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Sinky

[Jinja]

flybye, I also can only afford 5-10 hrs per week on the sim with family commitments.

 

I can say that if it wasn't for my trackir and HOTAS, this sim would be a little too masochistic for me. I never have to touch the keyboard for a full flight (I also have the TM MFDs); if I did have to use the keyboard, I'd never remember all the shortcuts and the fun would vanish for me since I can't devote alot of time for those keyboard commands to end up in my muscle-memory.

 

But this sim is unparalleled, just get it and find out whether you like it for yourself. If it doesn't... oh well, it only cost a couple of nights on the beer!

[WRFirefox]

This simulation is more complex than every thing else in the "virtual sky"!

Its not only the flight model, the damage model, systems deep or the handling with the hotas...... - the key to this simulation is the Mission Editor and things you can do with it!

If you take a look at the integrated Mission Generator in the ME you will see one part of that what i am meening. Before you generate a Mission there you can edit the battlefield - change the units type and size, add JTAC, add CAP Fighter, and so on - awesome!

The next great part in the ME is to place Units you can order over the communication Menu - you let patrol an CAP flight in backspace of the frontbattlefield and call it, if you need them - or you activate a tank unit by radio item to attack an area.......

 

BUT!!!! There is one negative side of this sim, you have to learn the most things at "trial and error" - the manual is not great and deep enough for all the things you can and have to do:pilotfly:

Edited May 5, 2011 by WRFirefox

[kungfoo]

There's plenty of complexity there but beyond the hurdles of getting your controls set and learning to start the jet (which really isn't that hard) CCIP MK82s and guns are so fast to learn it's not funny.

 

But being really efficient with the cannon (read: Tanks and BMPs) while there's dangerous enemies firing back at you is not actually that easy anymore.

[Scrobes]

Although this is modern warfare, it has that element of micromanaging your equipment. I simply loved the thread here of someone's A-10 being shot, fuel was disrupted in some way, and they had to manually prime and restart one of their engines in mid flight. First thing I said out loud after reading that was "Yeah!"

 

 

Ahhhh this reminds me of the old days of B-17 Flying Fortress on my Amiga, where you had engine fires. ;)

[mistral87]

I don't think TrackIR is too important in this game. Try mapping the saved views for tgp, tad, the consoles etc on your stick (I now press pinky+coolie hat for these views). This way you can switch between normal view and say full screen tgp view instantly.

TrackIR is imho more useful for dogfights as in Lock On or IL2.

But if you have money to spare, go for it.:D

[S77th-konkussion]

yeah I have to respectfully disagree. A HOTAS is a crucial piece of equipment- as is the track ir. These items should not be looked at as "enthusiast" They are a nugget's best friends.

 

In order to facilitate effective learning- you need to set up a HOTAS as true to life as possible.

 

Now don't take me too literally here. I DON'T mean setting up some insanely awesome cockpit complete with consoles and laser cut panels. I'm talking about your controllers. The training and the basic language is comprised of terminology like:

 

"CHINA HAT FWD LONG" "TMS UP SHORT" "DMS LEFT LONG"

 

There is a good reason for this- the same throw of the switch serves different functions depending on what the SOI is. Your brain will learn to associate and memorize these terms WAY faster and easier than trying to put together a dizzying array of key commands- most of them using up to 6 modifiers in the sim. . (L+R ctrl, alt, shift, and sometimes windows keys)

 

This is what we did in LOMAC and FC. No problem. You assigned your key commands- done deal.

 

I tried this same approach with DCS. The results are in:

 

 

 

You will need to arrange -in a logical manner- the basic HOTAS functions. (TMS, DMS, TRIM, BOAT/CHINA, COOLIE. CMS too if at all possible.

 

If you do not have these functions assigned in a way that works well for you- you will struggle mightily.

 

You can still combine commands on the same HAT- but do it logically. Don't just throw a bunch of random crap at the same HAT. (ex. TMS/ DMS on the same hat- one of them as a "shifted" or alternate set. )

 

In short a HOTAS is critical. A HOTAS with enough HATS.

 

 

 

Non-owners will scoff at this, but neither is a track ir an exclusive, elitist tool for flight sim whackjobs. I can't think of a more valuable tool for a new guy than this.

 

How in the HELL can you learn anything if you are constantly having to adjust your virtual melon in every direction at all times? If you have to pick one item pick this. Even over a HOTAS. (but don't delay the HOTAS a minute longer than is absolutely necessary)

 

Having to manually adjust your view is a colossal task. And- a waste of programming space on your stick. These items are a critical investment for this hobby. No one wants anyone to go into the poorhouse- but do obtain them as soon as possible.

[Sinky]

You will need to arrange -in a logical manner- the basic HOTAS functions. (TMS, DMS, TRIM, BOAT/CHINA, COOLIE. CMS too if at all possible.

 

If you do not have these functions assigned in a way that works well for you- you will struggle mightily.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You may have used a cheap ( but good ) stick a long time ago, but have you actually tried one recently that is logically mapped? I do not disagree that it's a whole lot easier to not have to touch the keyboard, but if you map a cheap stick right even if it has one hat switch, it takes more time training but once you've got it your just as good as someone with a HOTAS.

 

Spent many hours mapping my 'cheapo stick so it's just perfect and does almost everything including all the HAT's.

 

Again, this is my own opinion that stems from a steady switch between a good HOTAS and a properly mapped budget flight stick. I don't think most people would understand where I'm coming from unless they do the same kind of switch.

 

TrackIR is a must and the only people who say it isn't a must, from my experience are people who have never used it. Once you've used one you can't do without, not just for accessing controls around the pit but also for situational awareness.

[bloomstomb]

Trackir5 , very important.

 

You can set up your hotas on the keyboard, I used stickers and color coded everything. Its pretty easy to use now.

[WRFirefox]

HOTAS and TrackIR is a must have for this simulation!

 

Im using an "old" HOTAS (Saitek X45) and it works very fine! And sorry - but nobody can tell me, that he can all commands lay on a "cheopo stick" and can use all systems as well as with a HOTAS (sorry, my english isn´t very well).

 

No HOTAS - no FUN with this SIMULATION - maybe in GAME MODE it will make fun?

 

EDIT: no FUN without HOTAS isn´t right - less fun! With HOTAS 100% FUN - without HOTAS 30% FUN :smilewink:

Edited May 5, 2011 by WRFirefox

[Nate--IRL--]

............but nobody can tell me, that he can all commands lay on a "cheopo stick" and can use all systems as well as with a HOTAS (sorry, my english isn´t very well).

 

No HOTAS - no FUN with this SIMULATION - maybe in GAME MODE it will make fun?

 

Oh really? Me and my €30 stick do just fine, thanks.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1122264&postcount=15

 

TIR or Freetrack is more important than a HOTAS IMO.

 

Nate

[jireland607]

I'm using Saitek X45 as well. The default key assignments for HOTAS controls are not very user friendly either which does not help.

 

I also use FreeTrack as a cheap TrackIR. The software is free although you will have to build an IR tracking hat. To start I would build a very simple one IR LED track to give you UP/DOWM, LEFT/RIGHT. IT will cost you under £5 to make including hat. This makes life so much easier in the cockpit.

 

I to have a family so am restricted to a few hours a week. You'll obviously get better faster if you dedicate 30 hours a week to the sim but I have managed to learn most of the systems playing 3-4 hours a week.

[GGTharos]

... and how much did the webcam/wiimote/whatever else cost you?

 

I also use FreeTrack as a cheap TrackIR. The software is free although you will have to build an IR tracking hat. To start I would build a very simple one IR LED track to give you UP/DOWM, LEFT/RIGHT. IT will cost you under £5 to make including hat. This makes life so much easier in the cockpit.

[Ozz13]

 

In short a HOTAS is critical. A HOTAS with enough HATS.

 

 

+1

 

I was a little enthusiastic to jump in the seat when I first purchased and used keyboard commands. After a few lessons I figured out quickly that, in the long term, I was handicapping my potential to learn by taking the easy way out and not mapping out and learning my HOTAS.

 

You can take a pre-made profile or start some lessons and right down commands as they appear. You'll find that you're instructed to use "china hat forward" the "V" key quite a bit..so you'll figure out that the "V" key should be binded on your hotas, and so on and so on.

 

Once I used the stick for all the primary equivalent keyboard commands learning really smoothed out.

 

TrackIR is definitely a good tool as well. I watched a youtube video of a cold start and the ability to look and switch blew me a way. so.. I ordered one yesterday :D I know it will add that extra level of immersion to this (and ARMA 2)

[WRFirefox]

....on my X45 i got a double layer on the HATs and the BOTTONs - and it makes things very easy in flight! If someone prefer the hard way - ok! But don´t knock it til you try it:smilewink:....and many hours of mapping the HOTAS once, brings many hours of fun unlimited!:pilotfly:

just my 2 Cent!

[Sinky]

....on my X45 i got a double layer on the HATs and the BOTTONs - and it makes things very easy in flight! If someone prefer the hard way - ok! But don´t knock it til you try it:smilewink:....and many hours of mapping the HOTAS once, brings many hours of fun unlimited!:pilotfly:

just my 2 Cent!

 

I have tried it...Fully functioning HOTAS Cougar here, I tend to use my Cyborg F.L.Y 5 more than it these days, so much in fact that I'm considering selling my Cougar. If I had a TM Warthog it would be a different story, Cougars are a ..... to setup.

[zamboni]

Sinky, although you may have given up on your Cougar, I think that Drako's profile for the sim is a really good starting point.

 

I changed a few things with my profile to make things a bit easier for me, I could attach my profile if you are interested (along with notes to what I had changed).

[Pyroflash]

I seem to be an odd ball, because I use the keyboard commands and the HOTAS controls interchangeably. One minute I may feel like using my hotas to trim, the next I may want to use my keyboard. The same goes for zoom, slew, locking targets, and pretty much anything else I would need to do.

 

And while I agree that a HOTAS is a wonderful and amazing thing i would never dream of flying without; I would not say that it is completely necessary in order to fly the A-10.