Flaming Cliffs 3

[Airbuster]

You don't. People seem to have this notion that their games/whatever should be updated for free. Not so. Not even patches can be made for a long period of time without something giving.

 

And in the real world , where you're not just paying $40 or $60 for a piece of entertainment software, millions are spent for support and maintainance of software for x amount of years. While you're entitled to patching of critical bugs under the 'fit for purpose' doctrine, you're not entitled to anything else.

It's not about free updating or whatever. All I see is that there are two products that are obviously compatible, even the directory structure is similar. I think that the work which ED dev team put to update BS can be easily done to FC2. Even a forum member managed to merge the A-10C beta with FC2.

Is it fair to have double standards for different products?

[EtherealN]

Whenever someone says "can be easily done", my immediate conclusion is that the person posting is not a programmer. Correct? ;)

 

I'll say this:

Porting DCS:BS to the current gen engine does absolutely zilch towards facilitating a porting of FC.

[GGTharos]

It's not about free updating or whatever. All I see is that there are two products that are obviously compatible, even the directory structure is similar. I think that the work which ED dev team put to update BS can be easily done to FC2. Even a forum member managed to merge the A-10C beta with FC2.

Is it fair to have double standards for different products?

 

To answer your question: Yes.

To further comment, 'obviously compatible' is nothing short of a superficial notion. There's nothing obvious about compatibility, like it or not. Don't care much about what happened in the beta, either: It's just no longer the same thing.

[GGTharos]

Pot calling the kettle black.

 

I guess you don't see the people that see things a little different.

[rattler]

It was my understanding when DCS was being discussed and work already started on the KA-50 that the DCS modules would be compatible. Nothing was said at the time about FC2. Now that said, if I am wrong please correct my understanding of how DCS was supposed to work. Personally I think it was a great idea. Having FC2 would have been icing on the cake so to speak. Cheers.

[rattler]

Pot calling the kettle black.

 

come on GG lets stop this foolishness. You have a right to your opinion and I should have the right to mine. We all want to see ED profitable and making Combat Sims., we just got a difference of opinion how. No reason to keep twisting knives. Cheers.

[GGTharos]

A lot of things were supposed to work one way, and ended up working another way - perhaps you recall this, too. In other words, the world of development is pretty fluid and financial issues can dictate various developments.

[rattler]

A lot of things were supposed to work one way, and ended up working another way - perhaps you recall this, too. In other words, the world of development is pretty fluid and financial issues can dictate various developments.

 

Ok, I agree with that. It's too bad at the moment that things don't appear to be getting on track, but then again,most of us don't have any idea of what is happening and just maybe that is what is actually happening. At least lets hope as it would be nice.

[GGTharos]

Exactly. And you won't know until ED announces what they're up to next. And then you'll only know up to that point, anyway.

 

most of us don't have any idea of what is happening and just maybe that is what is actually happening.

[VincentLaw]

This is an Eagle forum so why do people speak of being a minority.

Amount of copies sold over amount of users on this forum.

I hope you don't think a majority of the people using the product are actually hanging out on the forum. ;)

 

The fraction is even smaller when you take a ratio of the number of users that posted in this thread versus the total number of registered users. Only 117 members have posted in here over the 32488 forum members, which is 0.36% of the forum. Now consider that this 0.36% is not unanimous. Some people like Airbuster would like to see a FC2 compatibility patch, while other people like HiJack would rather have FC3, and there are various other opinions floating around. Any opinion expressed here is a fraction of a small minority of a small minority that neglects the opinions of non-English speakers. This does not even account for the fact that there are other factors involved in product decisions such as military contracts, data availability, project complexity, and money.

 

This is why I do not expect what I think to have a noticeable impact on what ED does (although I certainly would like it to), but by looking at the general trend of opinions here and elsewhere, it may be possible to vaguely extrapolate the opinions of the larger, silent, customer base. So what you say does matter, sort of. The term "minority" does not mean completely irrelevant. ED does an excellent job communicating with its community compared to many companies. Even the moderators are more involved here, on some sites its hard to tell whether they are actually humans or not, but I never feel completely ignored here.

 

But that also does not change the fact that we currently know even less about ED's future plans or reasoning with Flaming Cliffs as we do about DCS:Next. The uncertainty, speculation, and arguments makes it all a little more exciting, which I think is part of the plan. (Either that or its just to keep people from getting upset and having fits when things don't work out.) I actually prefer the way ED always has pleasant surprises rather than failed promises. The developers bear all the burden of disappointment for us.

[Laud]

I however will keep stating my thoughts and ideas. Maybe the day will come when someone in charge will say "That's a really good idea! We'll go for it." And of course just for the fun of exchange opinions with the community. :)

[GGTharos]

I would say you hit a bunch of nails on the head ;)

 

Even with A-10C there have been some issues that didn't work out quite right, and everyone was sure they'd be in - and certainly the devs would have liked them to be in.

 

Take the deleted battlefield commander feature as an example. It was too buggy to deal with, not to mention some other issues surrounding it. There was just no time to deal with it. Will it make a come back one day? I sure hope so.

But then, take other things that did work out and came as a nice little surprise, for example, the self-shadowing cockpit.

 

But that also does not change the fact that we currently know even less about ED's future plans or reasoning with Flaming Cliffs as we do about DCS:Next. The uncertainty, speculation, and arguments makes it all a little more exciting, which I think is part of the plan. (Either that or its just to keep people from getting upset and having fits when things don't work out.) I actually prefer the way ED always has pleasant surprises rather than failed promises. The developers bear all the burden of disappointment for us.

[EtherealN]

The uncertainty, speculation, and arguments makes it all a little more exciting, which I think is part of the plan.

 

Now wouldn't that be oh so deliciously devious? :D

 

I actually prefer the way ED always has pleasant surprises rather than failed promises. The developers bear all the burden of disappointment for us.

 

Here is the key. Whenever someone feels that ED is being a bit too tight-lipped, they should reflect on the fact that ED has taken a LOT of flak (some of it really REALLY vile) when it had announced something as a "plan" which later had to be struck down due to the nasty thing known as "reality". ED does still of course try to communicate as much as possible with it's fanbase, and while many of the guys don't have time to reply I want you all to be sure that they do read and they do appreciate feedback, but they has to be careful about how they respond to it. It's so easy for people to take the words "I want" or "I hope" as "I promise" when there's an ED tag under the name.

[rattler]

I guess some of the problem is we don't really know if they read what gets posted on the forum. We assume they do or we would not comment or suggest etc. If someone could just say once in a while 'thanks for your input,what ever and we are here to read your thoughts and comments would help. They or someone would not have to say really to much, just an acknowledgement that they are here. I don't know just my thought, because it would really make me feel a little better knowing someone actually reads our input. I know this is an ED forum and like I said we or I assume that they read some of our input but knowing that they do by a little note once in a while to me would be nice and possibly relieve some stress of the unknown. Just a thought. They may be too busy and that's ok.

[GGTharos]

Plenty of people have had discourse with ED devs, and their comments have been acknowledged. That said, they're not under obligation to go around acknowledging everyone's comments (nor the time, frankly), including yours. Sorry to put it this way but ... deal with it. You've obviously either not read enough of this forum or you've been doing some selective reading.

 

ED have tried a bunch of ways to communicate, including updates as-often-as-possible on various current projects etc. No, you won't be getting information on future projects, so you may as well stop mentioning that. Not going to happen until they're ready to announce what's next.

[EtherealN]

They or someone would not have to say really to much, just an acknowledgement that they are here.

 

The devs comment a lot on this forum, but you have to remember a certain set of facts:

 

1) Most ED employees are russian. Where would they most likely hang out? Anglophilia is cute (and I am one), but that's reality. If you don't speak russian, why do you expect russians to communicate to you in english?

2) The english-speaking portions of TFC and ED do talk a lot in all these threads, if you choose to see it.

2b) However, devs and producers have to be extremely careful about what they say, due to what I've said before.

 

Basically, let me say this; they are here. They read a lot. I think it's been only once or twice where I've sent a thread "upstairs" due to me feeling they should see it and they didn't already know about it. And that's over roughly two years!

 

The know, and they read. But think of it like this: if they were to acknowledge everything in the way you describe, it would get very close to a full-time-job. That one of the reasons why there is such a thing as "moderators" (aside from the obvious part of keeping trolls and bots chained). We do our best to help them - and you - out, in a two-way communcation. ;)

 

Basically, please, take my word for it: they hear you.

Edited September 7, 2011 by EtherealN

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I guess some of the problem is we don't really know if they read what gets posted on the forum. We assume they do or we would not comment or suggest etc. If someone could just say once in a while 'thanks for your input,what ever and we are here to read your thoughts and comments would help. They or someone would not have to say really to much, just an acknowledgement that they are here. I don't know just my thought, because it would really make me feel a little better knowing someone actually reads our input. I know this is an ED forum and like I said we or I assume that they read some of our input but knowing that they do by a little note once in a while to me would be nice and possibly relieve some stress of the unknown. Just a thought. They may be too busy and that's ok.

Check Russian part of the forum. I was very surprise to see how much are several ED Team Members involved in different topics and discussions. Many topics are started by FrogFoot and Chizh.

 

All you need to do is learn Russian ...

[EtherealN]

All you need to do is learn Russian ...

 

A foreign (geddit? :D ) concept. :P

 

(And I saying that as someone who has neither english nor russian as my mother tongue. :) )

[rattler]

Plenty of people have had discourse with ED devs, and their comments have been acknowledged. That said, they're not under obligation to go around acknowledging everyone's comments (nor the time, frankly), including yours. Sorry to put it this way but ... deal with it. You've obviously either not read enough of this forum or you've been doing some selective reading.

 

ED have tried a bunch of ways to communicate, including updates as-often-as-possible on various current projects etc. No, you won't be getting information on future projects, so you may as well stop mentioning that. Not going to happen until they're ready to announce what's next.

 

 

I was just trying to say once in a while someone maybe Wags pop in and just acknowledge ED is interested in our comments or anything at all, just to let us know they do drop in from time to time. Nothing more. No statement of what is to come, nothing. Just let us know they come and look or something along those lines. God that can't be to much to ask. I know their busy but they have us too and it is nice to know they drop by.

 

Maybe I should learn Russian. From what was just said a few minutes ago, the Russian forum gets more response. Man why do people have to jump on someone for making a natural conversation. Yes I am well aware of whats on this forum and how people get answered.

Edited September 7, 2011 by rattler

[GGTharos]

You have already been told they do. Drop it.

 

You totally misread my statement. I was just trying to say once in a while someone maybe Wags pop in and just acknowledge ED is interested in our comments or anything at all, just to let us know they do drop in from time to time. Nothing more. No statement of what is to come nothing. Just let us know they come and look or something along those lines. God that can't be to much to ask. I know their busy but they have us too and it is nice to know they drop by.

[cichlidfan]

If I may...

 

Wags, among several other ED staff members, does indeed post frequently on the forums. He may not say the words you are looking for but he is certainly aware of the content of the posts.

 

Since we are talking about Wags, you can see his posting statistics right here. Just click on the statistics tab.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/member.php?u=3338

 

Over 5,300 posts with an average of more than 2 per day.

 

:music_whistling:

[rattler]

I however will keep stating my thoughts and ideas. Maybe the day will come when someone in charge will say "That's a really good idea! We'll go for it." And of course just for the fun of exchange opinions with the community. :)

 

YES, and I will be doing the same.:)

[Wags]

Of course myself, other staff members, community managers and moderators read forum posts. After over 5000 posts over most of the sub forums and posting at least a couple of times a day, I thought it was obvious that not much is posted without me seeing it.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Wags

[VincentLaw]

Mower is proof that if you bitch long and hard enough, wishes do come true. :)

I do not think that we should learn from this. :)

 

Turns out Stretch was right after all. I hope everyone can rest easily now! Your watchfulness is greatly appreciated by everyone here.

Edited September 8, 2011 by VincentLaw

[cichlidfan]

See...and I bet Wags uses all ten fingers when he types too!:P