Typical dive parameters on target for gun rounds delivery

[WildBillKelsoe]

Hello,

 

I wonder what is the standard dive parameters for employing the avenger?

 

I mean pitch angle, breaking altitude, dive speed, brake configuration, pretty much also the gun itself. I notice that fired rounds appear on the hud as green droplets (is this real?) and I also wanna know your gun firing time. The range on the gun is soo close that tanks and BTRs start chewing me green. 0.9 nm is the range but how do I adjust the target elevation because sometimes JTAC directs target elevation in the 9-line.

[CEPEGA]

You can fire on BTR's and even shilka's from greater ranges than 0,9nm. I'm engaging them from 2nm range, the accuracy isn't very well, but with a longer burst you destroy them very easily without getting in their range where they can harm you much.

[159th_Viper]

Aye - as said, BMP's, IFV's AAA etc etc you're safe from 1nm+. As for heavy armour (MBT's), range to commence firing is 0.7nm, breaking off at 0.5nm, alternatively 0.4 and no later. A 30-degree dive angle or thereabouts will usually suffice.

 

Pitch up and align, bleeding energy prior to diving and engaging - that way you'll ensure that your airspeed is not too great, leaving you with sufficient energy to evade and extend whilst keeping your wings intact :D

 

What is it you're attempting to engage? We can post tracks as examples if that'll assist at all.

[WildBillKelsoe]

tanks? I'm having a hard time in getting rounds on target, primarily because my GPU wont render things that far away unless I zoom too much which is unrealistic. Please post some tracks. Also, if I fire the gun I get my nose up and to counteract, I push a lickle bit on the stick forward, sometimes trimming 2 notches for'ard as a counteract, and when completed, I reset prior to flaring and braking off. I'm currently studying the CDU pages and soon should post a video for newbies.

[Harzach]

tanks? I'm having a hard time in getting rounds on target, primarily because my GPU wont render things that far away unless I zoom too much which is unrealistic. Please post some tracks. Also, if I fire the gun I get my nose up and to counteract, I push a lickle bit on the stick forward, sometimes trimming 2 notches for'ard as a counteract, and when completed, I reset prior to flaring and braking off. I'm currently studying the CDU pages and soon should post a video for newbies.

 

Are you not using PAC? It makes life a lot easier (for the Hog pilot, not the other guy).

[159th_Viper]

tanks? I'm having a hard time in getting rounds on target, primarily.....

 

Here we go - MBT kill with a 70-round burst.

 

Probably the most important is to keep a good dive angle - too shallow and you're gonna have to put more rounds on target. Also keep in mind the pipper-bug at present (already fixed for next patch) which will stabilise PAC-1 on the HEI pipper instead of the API pipper, making your life considerably more difficult than what it should be - a steep dive-angle will negate this.

 

Track: [ATTACH]54862[/ATTACH]

[WildFire]

Gonna jump in here, I only recently assigned a joystick button to PAC as I kind of skipped it somehow in the manual and never went back. So I finally assigned the button, I can tell you that if your not using PAC you are not serious about killing your target.

 

Super useful info on the ranges thank you viper and cepega.

 

In essence, with PAC and within optimal range, you WILL kill whatever your aiming at.

Also of note, in a mission I am building right now targets are in the mountains. The side of them, so a lot of times the CCIP gun sight is rendered useless because it cant accurately range because well... its a computer.

There are other sights you can use of course but so far I have found that if you dive right above them, fly in straight down and use the gun cross on the top of the hud that if your within a couple miles youll get pretty good hits. Seems bullets travel pretty straight, straight down... (no duh right?)

[Herbie.no]

I found trimming the aircraft to be more effective than stage-one PAC on alignment, but hey, that's me...

And with a little aiming offset the PAC-jump can also be your friend :D

[EtherealN]

The side of them, so a lot of times the CCIP gun sight is rendered useless because it cant accurately range because well... its a computer.

There are other sights you can use of course but so far I have found that if you dive right above them, fly in straight down and use the gun cross on the top of the hud that if your within a couple miles youll get pretty good hits. Seems bullets travel pretty straight, straight down... (no duh right?)

 

If you are getting CCIP invalids due to insufficient DTS detail next to mountains, just set target elevation manually using UFC data rockers. ;)

[Crescendo]

The key to consistently destroying tanks is to attack them directly from the rear and the top, or directly from the side and top where the armour is thinnest; to attack the armour as 'straight on' as possible to minimize deflections and ricochets; to attack from a steep dive angle so that the rounds cluster tightly together; and finally to attack from close range so that your rounds have high kinetic energy when striking the target.

 

In short, you want to do this:

 

 

• Attack the tank from the rear and top (preferably), or from the side and top
  
• Attack with an angle-off of 0° (preferably straight-on, no acute angles)
  
• Attack with a dive angle of around 20-30°
  
• Engage PAC-1 as early as possible and for as long as possible
  
• Attack with a 1-1.5sec burst at 0.6nm or less, then egress in the vertical and horizontal at 0.3-0.4nm
  
• PAC-1 stabilisation before firing is preferable but NOT required; PAC-2 (firing your gun immediately) works just fine if you're short on time and your aim is true.
  

 

Others will advise attacking at further distances for reasons of safety and egress and so on (which I won't argue with), but if you want to consistently kill T-80s in one pass, the closer you are the better. In a real mission with tank machine gun fire flying all around, you might prefer to kill them in two passes at longer ranges for increased survivability.

 

How you fly your airplane to meet those parameters is up to you, but I generally fly a rectangular pattern around the target at 3000-6000ft, and then 'roll-in' to the target at reduced throttle when it's roughly at my 2 or 10 o'clock (using the right and left wings as a refernece). Then all you have to do is pull up 'into' the target and roll wings-level when the center of the HUD frame or pipper is centred on the target. From there you should be established in a dive of between 20-30° with wings-level, and with the target under or near the pipper. Adjust aim as necessary. Your airspeed should be somewhere between 300-375 KIAS, as you want to be fast enough to quickly egress the area and to have enough energy to respond to threats, but not so fast as to over-g the aircraft.

 

So,

 

 

1. Establish a rectangular or circular 'orbit' around a target at 3000-6000ft
   
2. On the final 'leg' of the rectangle or circle, ensure the target is at your 2 or 10 o'clock using the wings as a reference
   
3. Bank unloaded 100°+ into the target
   
4. Pull up 'into' the target maintaining bank as necessary
   
5. Roll wings-level when the center of the HUD frame or pipper are centered on the target
   
6. Adjust aim as necessary (minimal banking should be required if done correctly)
   
7. Engage PAC-1 when pipper is on target and adjust aim if required
   
8. Fire at ~0.6nm for 1-1.5 seconds
   
9. Egress in the horizontal and vertical no less than 0.3nm from target.
   

 

I recommend always 'rolling-in' to targets rather than flying directly towards them because it's easier to adjust your aim when you're already banking and pitching into a target. If you fly directly towards a target you can sometimes get stuck banking left and right like a pendulum to correct your aim, whereas if you 'roll-in' to a target you only ever have one direction in which to bank, and then all you have to do is pull up 'into' the target and roll wings-level. The other advantage is that flying rectangles or circles around a target takes up a lot less space in comparison to flying directly towards a target, egressing, and then slowly setting up another direct run. The roll-in quickly beomes intuitive and is very versatile.

 

I've attached a track to this post demonstrating the above steps. You'll notice that I don't actually complete a full circle or rectangle around the target — this is because I was already correctly aligned with the rear of the tank on my second 'leg'. I killed this particular T-80 with 110 rounds, which is consistent with my usual 80-120 rounds. You can use less rounds if you're closer to target, are are well-stabilised with PAC-1, or are attacking from a higher angle (tighter cluster). Similarly, you can also use less rounds if you want to 'gamble' about whether or not you'll kill the tank in one pass.

 

NOTE: The track is recorded with the 64-bit executable and version 1.0.0.9. Using the 32-bit executable and different versions may result in faulty playback.

cres_guns_kill_1xT80.trk

[Crescendo]

By the way, if you're having trouble seeing targets I would simply zoom in more. Yes, it's unrealistic, but the resolution of the simulation is also unrealistic in terms of the human eye, so zooming in helps to counter that.

 

That said, if you're still having issues seeing targets you can try using the CCIP gun-cross with "CCIP GUN CROSS OCCULT" set to "N" in the IFFCC menu. This will provide you with a CCIP gun-cross that will NOT occult the SPI symbol on the HUD, provided that you use CCIP mode rather than GUNS mode. Then all you have to do is place the CCIP gun-cross in the center of the SPI symbol (which is NOT occulted) and fire at the appropriate range — you need not even have a visual on the target. Of course this method requires your SPI to be very accurate and your TGP to be tracking correctly (no gimbal roll or lock), but I have used it with success.

 

In my opinion it will never replace zooming and actually seeing the target, however. If you visually acquire the target with practice you can aim for specific parts of the tank, which is something you can't easily do with CCIP gun-cross and a SPI symbol.

[Crescendo]

Oh, and one last thing, do not fight PAC. That means no stick input from you when using PAC-1 (to stabilise) and PAC-2 (firing). PAC is designed to keep your rounds on target, and it does a very good job of it as long as you don't mess up its aim. :thumbup:

 

The only time it is acceptable to be 'fighting' PAC is when using PAC-1 to refine your stabilisation point. With PAC-1 engaged you will have reduced stick authority in order to 'fine tune' your pipper around a stable point, but after you've established a good point of aim leave PAC alone.

 

I personally do all my aiming without PAC, and then engage PAC-1 to 'settle' my pipper on that point. If I've messed up my aim I usually disengage PAC-1 and recquire, or abort the run. That's just personal preference though.

[BoneSaw]

Oh, and one last thing, do not fight PAC. That means no stick input from you when using PAC-1 (to stabilise) and PAC-2 (firing). PAC is designed to keep your rounds on target, and it does a very good job of it as long as you don't mess up its aim. :thumbup:

 

The only time it is acceptable to be 'fighting' PAC is when using PAC-1 to refine your stabilisation point. With PAC-1 engaged you will have reduced stick authority in order to 'fine tune' your pipper around a stable point, but after you've established a good point of aim leave PAC alone.

 

I personally do all my aiming without PAC, and then engage PAC-1 to 'settle' my pipper on that point. If I've messed up my aim I usually disengage PAC-1 and recquire, or abort the run. That's just personal preference though.

 

Having a two stage trigger is almost essential, stage one initiates PAC-1 and stage two fires the cannon. When aiming with the two stage trigger you simply click in and out of PAC-1 to refine your aim.

[WildFire]

If you are getting CCIP invalids due to insufficient DTS detail next to mountains, just set target elevation manually using UFC data rockers. ;)

 

Forgot about that, thank you... Im guessing that also works for ccip bombing in the mountains too?

[WildBillKelsoe]

Are you not using PAC? It makes life a lot easier (for the Hog pilot, not the other guy).

 

All my gun runs through PAC, but PAC 2 since my HOTAS has a one stage trigger, might as well skip PAC 1. I know that it stabilize the pipper on the same spot, but the trouble is, I don't know the dive range, dive altitude, at least give a clear picture on it..

[SmokeyTheLung]

but the trouble is, I don't know the dive range, dive altitude, at least give a clear picture on it..

 

There is no "one size fits all" answer to that question.

 

For a tank, you need to be between 0.3 - 0.7ish NM to be effective with the gun. I believe that during testing it was decided that about 30 degrees nose down was the optimal dive angle.

 

It's easy enough to achieve these parameters when using training targets... But not so much when they shoot back.

 

I would highly recommend that you map PAC 1 to something on your HOTAS. That will make it much easier to learn

[Harzach]

All my gun runs through PAC, but PAC 2 since my HOTAS has a one stage trigger, might as well skip PAC 1. I know that it stabilize the pipper on the same spot, but the trouble is, I don't know the dive range, dive altitude, at least give a clear picture on it..

 

Viper posted the basics for a gun run on armor (post #3), as for soft targets - I very loosely follow the same protocol, only at extended range. I agree with the above - figuring out a way to get PAC 1 working will make precision gunning much easier and more effective. Still, the "A" variant didn't have this system and they seemed to get along, so whatever works for you!

[Crescendo]

It's easy enough to achieve these parameters when using training targets... But not so much when they shoot back.

 

I don't know, I think it's actually quite easy to achieve repeatable parameters if you fly with a plan and have a bag of practiced maneuvers to draw from (spilt-s dive, orbit and roll-in dive, pop-up etc.).

 

The most difficult part when doing it 'for real' is actually finding the targets in the first place, and then making sure you've eliminated any SHORAD threats around them. Once that's done it should essentially become a muscle memory shooting gallery. I can regularly kill 6-10 MBTs with 1150 rounds in a typical mission that features typical SHORAD.

[SmokeyTheLung]

I don't know, I think it's actually quite easy

 

Then you sir, are a far finer virtual pilot than I :D

[WildBillKelsoe]

The key to consistently destroying tanks is to attack them directly from the rear and the top, or directly from the side and top where the armour is thinnest; to attack the armour as 'straight on' as possible to minimize deflections and ricochets; to attack from a steep dive angle so that the rounds cluster tightly together; and finally to attack from close range so that your rounds have high kinetic energy when striking the target.

 

In short, you want to do this:

 

 

• Attack the tank from the rear and top (preferably), or from the side and top
  
• Attack with an angle-off of 0° (preferably straight-on, no acute angles)
  
• Attack with a dive angle of around 20-30°
  
• Engage PAC-1 as early as possible and for as long as possible
  
• Attack with a 1-1.5sec burst at 0.6nm or less, then egress in the vertical and horizontal at 0.3-0.4nm
  
• PAC-1 stabilisation before firing is preferable but NOT required; PAC-2 (firing your gun immediately) works just fine if you're short on time and your aim is true.
  

 

Others will advise attacking at further distances for reasons of safety and egress and so on (which I won't argue with), but if you want to consistently kill T-80s in one pass, the closer you are the better. In a real mission with tank machine gun fire flying all around, you might prefer to kill them in two passes at longer ranges for increased survivability.

 

How you fly your airplane to meet those parameters is up to you, but I generally fly a rectangular pattern around the target at 3000-6000ft, and then 'roll-in' to the target at reduced throttle when it's roughly at my 2 or 10 o'clock (using the right and left wings as a refernece). Then all you have to do is pull up 'into' the target and roll wings-level when the center of the HUD frame or pipper is centred on the target. From there you should be established in a dive of between 20-30° with wings-level, and with the target under or near the pipper. Adjust aim as necessary. Your airspeed should be somewhere between 300-375 KIAS, as you want to be fast enough to quickly egress the area and to have enough energy to respond to threats, but not so fast as to over-g the aircraft.

 

So,

 

 

1. Establish a rectangular or circular 'orbit' around a target at 3000-6000ft
   
2. On the final 'leg' of the rectangle or circle, ensure the target is at your 2 or 10 o'clock using the wings as a reference
   
3. Bank unloaded 100°+ into the target
   
4. Pull up 'into' the target maintaining bank as necessary
   
5. Roll wings-level when the center of the HUD frame or pipper are centered on the target
   
6. Adjust aim as necessary (minimal banking should be required if done correctly)
   
7. Engage PAC-1 when pipper is on target and adjust aim if required
   
8. Fire at ~0.6nm for 1-1.5 seconds
   
9. Egress in the horizontal and vertical no less than 0.3nm from target.
   

 

I recommend always 'rolling-in' to targets rather than flying directly towards them because it's easier to adjust your aim when you're already banking and pitching into a target. If you fly directly towards a target you can sometimes get stuck banking left and right like a pendulum to correct your aim, whereas if you 'roll-in' to a target you only ever have one direction in which to bank, and then all you have to do is pull up 'into' the target and roll wings-level. The other advantage is that flying rectangles or circles around a target takes up a lot less space in comparison to flying directly towards a target, egressing, and then slowly setting up another direct run. The roll-in quickly beomes intuitive and is very versatile.

 

I've attached a track to this post demonstrating the above steps. You'll notice that I don't actually complete a full circle or rectangle around the target — this is because I was already correctly aligned with the rear of the tank on my second 'leg'. I killed this particular T-80 with 110 rounds, which is consistent with my usual 80-120 rounds. You can use less rounds if you're closer to target, are are well-stabilised with PAC-1, or are attacking from a higher angle (tighter cluster). Similarly, you can also use less rounds if you want to 'gamble' about whether or not you'll kill the tank in one pass.

 

NOTE: The track is recorded with the 64-bit executable and version 1.0.0.9. Using the 32-bit executable and different versions may result in faulty playback.

 

Whoa! Thats pretty helpful mate! And don't worry, were both 64 bits. Again thanks for the contribution.

[RobC]

Having a two stage trigger is almost essential, stage one initiates PAC-1 and stage two fires the cannon. When aiming with the two stage trigger you simply click in and out of PAC-1 to refine your aim.

 

I disagree slightly, if you don't have a two stage trigger you can bind another button on your stick to PAC-1 (I use one of the thumb buttons on my x45). You get basically the same result, hold down your PAC-1 button to stabilize, then while you continue to hold it down apply the trigger to shoot the gun (there is no reason to release the pac-1 button while shooting and in my experience it makes things a little wonky sometimes).

 

That said, the big things for consistently killing MBTs that other people have already said are Dive angle, attacking from the rear aspect (side aspect works with decreased effectiveness if needed when you are taking ground fire or are time limited etc.), and round density. You really want to come down on that thing from like 30 degrees so your rounds are hitting the squishier top parts rather then the hardened front and sides. You also need to really be putting a stream of rounds into the target and not just "drawing a line" over the top. The common mistake I made was to try to make up for a slightly off PAC stabilization by just "pulling a little bit" as I fired, which pretty much never works. What you need is a stream of impacts on target and not a line across the top for a MBT kill (the dive angle will help you here).

 

My preferred attack run is starting from 3-5k and maybe 2 miles out at full throttle and 250-300knots, rolling in on the target when they are off my wing, and firing from 0.7 to 0.5nm, followed by jukes in both the vertical and horizontal to avoid ground fire. At this point I can pretty consistently get the kill with 80-130 rounds fired. I also prefer the gun cross rather then the pipper (I find the pipper large and distracting).

 

That said, all of that is personal preference, make a training mission (or find one, stronghand had an excellent one someplace) with a bunch of inactive tanks, infinite ammo and gas (its not cheating if you are training :smilewink:) and just figure out what works and practice until you can repeat it.

 

Also don't pull up so hard you rip your wings off, its terribly embarrassing and I have most certainly never done that :music_whistling: .

[Crescendo]

Whoa! Thats pretty helpful mate! And don't worry, were both 64 bits. Again thanks for the contribution.

 

No problem, happy to offer whatever help I can. :thumbup:

[WildBillKelsoe]

I found trimming the aircraft to be more effective than stage-one PAC on alignment, but hey, that's me...

And with a little aiming offset the PAC-jump can also be your friend :D

 

I will second that ^^