BS2 and G940

[Nobody96]

I suppose I have the same problem. My Shark is pulling up when I release the trimmer and rolls if I fly at high speed. Its fine in FD mode though. I will have another look into it this evening.

 

so long

Mathias

Edited November 4, 2011 by Nobody96

[jib]

Because I had a nice fresh install of BS 1.0 (to Install BS2) i tried the trimmer on 1.0 and it still will not release the force feedback when the trimmer is depressed, it only releases force feedback for a mico second when you release the button. (I have to send repeated presses of T to be able to move the stick) This proves that it happens in every version of BS.

I can't belive that somepeople with a G940 arnt having this problem

 

I think I will go back to using my Logitech 3D Pro (with the G940 peddels and trorottle) and see if that works.

[Nobody96]

Is the force feedback supposed to be off when I hold the trimmer? Didn't know that.

 

so long

Mathias

[sylkhan]

Is the force feedback supposed to be off when I hold the trimmer?

 

Yes.

 

But actually something is wrong when we release the trimmer, the nose pitch up 15°. Not the case in BS1. very strange and unplayable with the FFB2

[jib]

Yes that is how it works in the real helicopter and that is how it works with the Logitech 3D pro and other force feedback sticks (I Believe) and that is how it should work with the G940!

[Nobody96]

It seems they have broken the FFB in BS2: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=80992

[f-18hornet]

I've got 1.0.2 and 2.0 installed. I'm flying them back to back. The g940 behaves the same. It's jerky when you let off the trim. If you've any pressure on the stick and spam the trimmer, it walks in that direction. There is always pressure on the stick regardless of the trimmer button being held down or not.

 

I haven't changed any settings in either game except for video and the basic hotas controls. They are fresh installs on a fresh Win7 install. The joystick is at 50% power or so. I remember it doing this the last time I tried to play Black Shark. The force feedback has always been screwed up.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm sure we're all aware that the FFB2 is the ideal stick to have for Black Shark but this has nothing to do with the G940. The G940 has always been bad. There are no workarounds for the problem, only ways to make it less obvious and annoying. The G940 will not under any circumstances work like your FFB2 will in this game.

 

When I fly my BS1 1.0.2 and BS2 Force Feedback behave exactly the same way as you said.

[Nobody96]

When I fly my BS1 1.0.2 and BS2 Force Feedback behave exactly the same way as you said.

 

So there is no pulling up or rolling? Could you post your profiler and BS1 + BS2 settings?

[f-18hornet]

Here is my profile. I use it for both BS1 and BS2.

Curvature in BS for both axis is -100.

FFB overal effects strength 80

spring effect strength 45

damper effect strength 45

Both BS just fly really bad BS.

 

When I turn off FFB it behaves normally how I expect

DCS Black Shark.rar

Edited November 4, 2011 by f-18hornet

[galagamo]

 

When I turn off FFB it behaves normally how I expect

Does the stick remain in place and does the helo retain aoa after trimming?

I turned off FFB and the stick behaved how I expected, as a really sloppy non FFB stick.

BS2 FFB on the G940 is definitely Fubar. Can/will it be addressed?

[Jesse]

Is the force feedback supposed to be off when I hold the trimmer? Didn't know that.

 

Yes. In theory you should be able to have your force settings at 100%, the stick should be unmovable until you hold the trim button, at which point the stick becomes slack. Then you move the cyclic wherever you want it and release the trim button, which turns on the forces again and makes the stick immovable.

 

Since the G940 release, this has never worked correctly. Currently you must set the force level on the stick low enough to be able to move it around without tiring yourself, but still high enough to keep the stick steady when you reposition the stick and trim. This is not right. It's only a bad workaround that leaves a lot to be desired if you know any better.

 

Also upon releasing the trim in a new position, the stick is very briefly slack until the force feedback motors work to center the stick in the new position. Since you're constantly fighting the force feedback (using your muscles to pull the stick to the new position against the sticks will), when it releases it for that very brief moment and you're not prepared for it, you will keep trying to pull the stick in that direction and the loss of force will make you jerk the stick slightly.

 

All the firmware update for the G940 did was decrease the amount of slack in the center of the stick when the motors are holding it in place. It just made the stick feel tighter when the force feedback is on. It does nothing to address the fact that the G940 is and always has been broken when it comes to the Black Shark trimming system.

[sylkhan]

When I turn off FFB it behaves normally how I expect

 

Yes with FFB off, all is good, but with ffb on, it's buggy

and i can't fly without ffb with my Microsoft FFB2

 

the problem is the same as the g940: a ffb bug

[sylkhan]

It does nothing to address the fact that the G940 is and always has been broken when it comes to the Black Shark trimming system.

[/size]

The FFB2 as always working with BS, but not now. the there is something wrong with the FFB

[f-18hornet]

...

Also upon releasing the trim in a new position, the stick is very briefly slack until the force feedback motors work to center the stick in the new position. Since you're constantly fighting the force feedback (using your muscles to pull the stick to the new position against the sticks will), when it releases it for that very brief moment and you're not prepared for it, you will keep trying to pull the stick in that direction and the loss of force will make you jerk the stick slightly.

 

All the firmware update for the G940 did was decrease the amount of slack in the center of the stick when the motors are holding it in place. It just made the stick feel tighter when the force feedback is on. It does nothing to address the fact that the G940 is and always has been broken when it comes to the Black Shark trimming system.

 

For me it I would be happy enough when FFB would be turned on but stick would behave like it was turned off and I wouldn't have to fight with FFB motors.

[mikey]

Good thing I found this thread before buying BS2. I'm not gonna spend $20 just to get pissed off at how ED and Logitech never made this HOTAS work properly.

[StoOopiD]

Yes. In theory you should be able to have your force settings at 100%, the stick should be unmovable until you hold the trim button, at which point the stick becomes slack. Then you move the cyclic wherever you want it and release the trim button, which turns on the forces again and makes the stick immovable.

 

Since the G940 release, this has never worked correctly. Currently you must set the force level on the stick low enough to be able to move it around without tiring yourself, but still high enough to keep the stick steady when you reposition the stick and trim. This is not right. It's only a bad workaround that leaves a lot to be desired if you know any better.

 

Also upon releasing the trim in a new position, the stick is very briefly slack until the force feedback motors work to center the stick in the new position. Since you're constantly fighting the force feedback (using your muscles to pull the stick to the new position against the sticks will), when it releases it for that very brief moment and you're not prepared for it, you will keep trying to pull the stick in that direction and the loss of force will make you jerk the stick slightly.

 

All the firmware update for the G940 did was decrease the amount of slack in the center of the stick when the motors are holding it in place. It just made the stick feel tighter when the force feedback is on. It does nothing to address the fact that the G940 is and always has been broken when it comes to the Black Shark trimming system.

 

can i have ur g940 ? haha. seriously tho. u must have over looked something? i would uninstall the logitech profiler, delete all the logitech files in the hidden apps folder, and make damn sure that the center spring option in the windows devices was not checked.

 

right now im looking for the stick calibrator in windows? u know (move stick in circles then hit a button on the joystick thingy)

 

i hate the logitech profiler:mad:

[P1KW]

Hello

 

The sensitivity of the axes X, Y of joy should be in 100%.

 

It is the best value for positioning the trimmer FFB.

Lower values ​​increase the slack, in point trimmer.

 

It is very important not to dead zone axes, XY joy. In BS settings.

After several trimmed central point accumulating error.

 

To compensate for this 100% sensitivity, it is sufficient to slightly soften the corners of the axes in BS.

 

For the throttle and pedal axis sensitivity value should be 0%.

 

Greetings.

[Jesse]

Hello

 

The sensitivity of the axes X, Y of joy should be in 100%.

 

It is the best value for positioning the trimmer FFB.

Lower values ​​increase the slack, in point trimmer.

 

It is very important not to dead zone axes, XY joy. In BS settings.

After several trimmed central point accumulating error.

 

To compensate for this 100% sensitivity, it is sufficient to slightly soften the corners of the axes in BS.

 

For the throttle and pedal axis sensitivity value should be 0%.

 

Greetings.

 

Again, everything you are doing to make the G940 hotas work with this game is simply a bad workaround trying to fix a broken ffb implementation.

 

can i have ur g940 ? haha. seriously tho. u must have over looked something? i would uninstall the logitech profiler, delete all the logitech files in the hidden apps folder, and make damn sure that the center spring option in the windows devices was not checked.

 

right now im looking for the stick calibrator in windows? u know (move stick in circles then hit a button on the joystick thingy)

 

i hate the logitech profiler:mad:

 

Control Panel\Hardware and Sound\Devices and Printers

 

Sadly I haven't overlooked anything. I've owned the G940 since 2009 and followed this issue closely for years waiting for a fix. This issue is well known and exists in every G940. Thankfully the forcefeedback is fine in other games and DCSA10C.

 

Good thing I found this thread before buying BS2. I'm not gonna spend $20 just to get pissed off at how ED and Logitech never made this HOTAS work properly.

 

Yeah save your 20 bucks. I knew this wasn't going to be fixed but I had to try it myself.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Jesse

[Jedra]

Apologies, I am new here (a recent BS2 and G940 owner) and am trying to get up to speed with the various issues with the G940. Can I sumarise what I think are the issues that might also be affecting me...

 

1. You can only use Trim Lock if you have FF turned on for the stick. So, I can't use the stick in non FF mode and then get it to lock into a position I set? Is this an issues with the G940 generally or with it in combination with BS2? I have read the discussion, but I feel like I have walked into a long conversation half way through!

 

2. When I do put the stick into trim lock, it drops out slightly when I release the stick - almost as if the lock is still allowing a miliimeter or so of travel. Given the control is very senstive, this immediately sets me pitching up or down dramatically. Is this expected behaviour or is my stick or setup wrong?

 

3. Unrelated to some of the discussions here, but I can't find the actual answer anywhere else, but should I wish to use the Logitech profiler, which executable should I point it at? Launcher.exe or dcs.exe? I have managed to work out how to import profiles directly into DS2 and the stick, throttle and pedals are functioning but I am now just looking at what the profiler does that the in game stuff doesn't (if anything).

 

Again, sorry if I am going through old ground but I could not find definitive answers anywhere and this thread looked the most likely candidate to ask in.

[nen]

Same problem here. While in BS 1.02 the trimer works perfect, in BS 2 doesn`t. It raises the nose each time I use the trimmer. I hope ED guys fix it soon.

 

Greetings.

[ericinexile]

Sorry I don't want to read this whole thread. I just want to add my G940/BS2 impressions. I did nothing with my BS2 install other than map 1 button for trim. It worked and felt EXACTLY like my G940 feels with BS1. The only difference seems to be that the mini-stick is now useable with the Skhval, which I never managed with BS1.

[jib]

yes ericinexile nothing has changed for me either between BS1 and BS2 but THAT IS A BAD THING becasue the trim for the G940 has always been broken and acts unlike other force feedback joysticks (Microsoft FFB) which relesaes the trim forces propely when the trimmer is depressed.

[Smokin Hole]

Oh. Well that's never really bothered me because I use a relatively weak FFB force and trim often. (And I generally don't use the AP as (except for AH, it hurts my flying more than it helps).

[Jesse]

Apologies, I am new here (a recent BS2 and G940 owner) and am trying to get up to speed with the various issues with the G940. Can I sumarise what I think are the issues that might also be affecting me...

 

1. You can only use Trim Lock if you have FF turned on for the stick. So, I can't use the stick in non FF mode and then get it to lock into a position I set? Is this an issues with the G940 generally or with it in combination with BS2? I have read the discussion, but I feel like I have walked into a long conversation half way through!

 

2. When I do put the stick into trim lock, it drops out slightly when I release the stick - almost as if the lock is still allowing a miliimeter or so of travel. Given the control is very senstive, this immediately sets me pitching up or down dramatically. Is this expected behaviour or is my stick or setup wrong?

 

3. Unrelated to some of the discussions here, but I can't find the actual answer anywhere else, but should I wish to use the Logitech profiler, which executable should I point it at? Launcher.exe or dcs.exe? I have managed to work out how to import profiles directly into DS2 and the stick, throttle and pedals are functioning but I am now just looking at what the profiler does that the in game stuff doesn't (if anything).

 

Again, sorry if I am going through old ground but I could not find definitive answers anywhere and this thread looked the most likely candidate to ask in.

 

No problem. The old threads are buried and a new one is needed anyways.

 

1. Without force feedback enabled, the stick must be used like a non forcefeedback stick. You must return the stick to the center after each press of the trim button. The problem is, without ffb enabled, the tightness that you feel in the center with ffb enabled can't be found. The center of the sticks range feels extremely sloppy unless force feedback is enabled. Basically the tightness can only be turned on when a game sends spring holding forces, not when using the profiler to turn on centering spring mode or whatever.

 

2. The problem you're experiencing here is the tiny bit of slop with the force feedback motors. The motors can't hold it perfectly still. If you've done the firmware upgrade you've surely noticed how much that was improved last year. If you have any curves set up in the game to make the center movement more precise, the curves will not move with the trimmed position of the stick, meaning that if you trim hard stick forward, your stick is now very imprecise because you're on the wrong side of the curve. The solution to this (that ED could absolutely implement) is a moving response curve for ffb users. This means that if you're trimmed far to the left, the curve is reapplied after you trim to diminish any movement of the stick in it's new position.

 

3. The profiler is a nice tool that has some purpose, but for modern games like DCS it not necessary or useful to use it to map your controls. You should map everything you can inside the game, and use the profiler only for doing things you can't, such as mapping the ministick to do the trim in the A10C by making it send key presses to the game. Other than special uses like that, never use it to map your complete hotas. DCS can read input straight from your device so using a third party tool to have your device send keystrokes to the game is dumb, and screws some stuff up such as SOI selection etc in DCSA10 where you must hold the hotas button. I have a profile for every game in the profiler (for the axis adjustments), but what I do is apply that profile as a persistent profile using the 'Options>Global Profiler Settings...' window before I play. I don't bother launching the game with the profiler or having the profiler autodetect my current game. That's just me though.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Jesse

[Jedra]

@Jesse - thanks for your response. I have a lot to learn! As a new owner of the G940, I applied the FW upgrade immediately and therefore have no experience of it pre-update.

 

Anyways I will mull over your response over the next few days as I get to grips with the Black Shark.

 

For the moment I will be happy to keep it in the air for a few minutes without a fatal dive while learning the commands or the rotor blades destroying themselves (which seems to be happening a lot!). It's all part of the learning experience!