BS2 trim and FFB2 broken

[Mirtma]

 

I think that the Trim logic has changed a bit:

BS1:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is released and you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = autopilot authority is there again and readjusted to the the state the cyclic is while the trim has been released.

BS2:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is not released but you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = the old autopilot authority is for a small time-period there again and than readjusted to the to the new state the cyclic is while the trim has been released. - this leads to a unwanted control.

 

But I don't think that this should be the thing you have to do...

So- my question is which files I have to tweak/overwrite to get the old FFB-trim behaviour back? ;)

 

.

 

+1

You said it well. This is exactly what happens now. Without FD BS jump when press trim.

[sonic]

Okay, you put word on my "feelings", thanks! I too use the hold trim, change direction, release trim.

[PeterP]

Had more time to test this at the weekend(yes -I had to "test" instead of flying.. -sad but true..) :

 

I want to underline that this "pitch up" issue every-time you trim is not only annoying and can be compensated by just giving a little more pitch-down on the cyclic after you released the trim...

 

The Ka-50 will get absolutely uncontrollable with more trimming !

 

Let me explain:

When You often trim while you have the FFB stick in a state when you have a negative pitch (something what you usually have all time in a helicopter) - The Auto-pilot channel adds a little positive pitch to your "virtual" stick position when you trim. - So you add a little negative pitch to your real stick to compensate this - and steer where you want instead of going up.

 

When you do this more often you will end having your FFB stick holding full deflected witch negative pitch while the Virtual stick is in positive pitch...

 

So you have no more axis-travel left to compensate this discrepancy in your Real to the Virtual position. - and you will end up facing you nose to the sky while you hold your stick full deflected forward....!

 

 

I have no curves or what-else tweaked in my MS-FFB2.

 

All time I praised BS for the accurate simulation of a helicopter cyclic trim system .

This is one was always of the greatest key features in this sim - Simulating the FM accurately.

So it gets also the attention of RL-Pilots that only want to fly around - instead of shooting stuff..

 

But I can't hold this statement with BS2.

 

In short:

BS2 is not Flyable with a FFB joystick any more.

 

Please,please,please have a sharp look what changed between BS1 and BS2.

 

Until this bug exist I won't fly in BS2 any more. - this should not sound like a threat... - it's just the truth.

Edited November 7, 2011 by PeterP

[kylania]

When I was trying to get the hang of the trim system it seemed like I needed to do a series of very small trims in order to get the stick to trim level. Like, I had to push the stick WAY forward to counter act the 90 degree straight upward tendency of the helicopter without touching the stick.

 

Then I had to pull back a little, trim. Wait, pull back a bit more, trim again, wait. and so on. If I did anything too drastic when I trimmed and let go it would basically backflip the Ka-50. Each smaller trim didn't tilt way back like a full trim would. I still never really felt like I was flying it though.

 

After reading a bit, it seems these might be my troubles:

 

Also note, canceling trim in flight will revert the virtual cyclic to its default neutral position and, once again, pitch the helicopter up. The real helicopter is not equipped with a "cancel trim" function. It was added for the benefit of flight simmers based on high demand, but should not be used as part of the Ka-50 simulation.

 

and

 

However, it's important to understand that the FCS is commanded by the trimmer when the button is released, not when it's pressed.

 

Interestingly on topic, this is also in the QuickStart guide, making this entire thread seem really odd: "The best way to simulate proper trim mechanics in the simulation is through a Force Feedback joystick. However, because many flight simmers use non-FF sticks, the solution implemented is to introduce a short pause in control input when the trim button is released, to give the player a moment to recenter his joystick."

Edited November 7, 2011 by kylania

[sylkhan]

 

In short:

BS2 is not Flyable with a FFB joystick any more.

 

Please,please,please have a sharp look what changed between BS1 and BS2.

 

Until this bug exist I won't fly in BS2 any more. - this should not sound like a threat... - it's just the truth.

 

Same Here, can't fly with MS-FFB2. Waiting for quick patch of the patch/upgrade :)

[Nobody96]

I'll look into it a bit deeper tomorrow, when I get time.

 

Nate

 

Are there any news yet?

 

so long

Mathias

 

P.S.: I am using a g940 and have this issue, so has a friend of mine using the Saitek Evo Force. Because of that, I reckon its not a FFB2 specific issue.

[Mirtma]

No, it is not only FFB2 specific issue. I wrote it #10 post. I have same problem.

[159th_Viper]

No, it is not only FFB2 specific issue. I wrote it #10 post. I have same problem.

 

Whoops - apologies I missed that. I thought it pertained to FFB only. I'll have a look for you now :)

[Mirtma]

No problem ;)

[Joe Johnson]

Just wanted to say that I have the same Problems with my Saitek x52. The Shark is unflyable for me right now. I can provide more tracks to this problem if needed. Thanks for your efforts Viper! Hope this will be solved soon...

[159th_Viper]

Disclaimer at the outset: I am not saying that ya'all wrong and the issue does not exist: Just attempting to get to the bottom of this :)

 

Ran a quick test with non-FFB (Cougar Nxt) and am not experiencing any issues with 'CENTRAL POSITION TRIMMER MODE' unticked.

 

Now in order to investigate iro non-FFB flight-stick, I flew a quick distance from Batumi and back - track and mission attached (ignore flying fidelity - have splint on right wrist: Pay attention to trim inputs/attendant manoeuvring/attitude of helicopter):

 

 

TRIM BS2.miz

 

TRIM BS2.trk

 

 

Would all non-FFB pilots kindly just watch, attempt to replicate and post tracks and explanations so we can narrow down the issue. As I said, I'm not experiencing the 'pitch-up' at all, unless intentionally induced to bleed speed. Not necssary even replicate - just a quick spin is all that's required.

[Mirtma]

Will try when I get home. I don't remember how is my "central position trimmer mode" but isn't it option made for non FF stick?

[Nate--IRL--]

Viper the issue in post 10 is normal and occurs in BS1 - FFB has had another issue introduced in BS2 - seems to be related to exactly when the AP authority is released. Non-FFB is unchanged.

 

Nate

[159th_Viper]

Viper the issue in post 10 is normal and occurs in BS1 - FFB has had another issue introduced in BS2 - seems to be related to exactly when the AP authority is released. Non-FFB is unchanged.

 

Nate

 

Am aware of that issue.

 

We however have two non-FFB members (Joe Johnson and Mirtma) who have alluded to having issues with the trim, hence the track and mission in an attempt to aid/investigate.

[Nate--IRL--]

Ah, I missed those posts, ignore me :)

 

Nate

[Mirtma]

As far as I remember, in BS1 I could press trim button, change direction, altitude etc. with pressed and then release trim. Without FD. Now, as soon as I press trim, bird jump up. Only way to fly "normally" is with FD on. And still sometimes occurs, that control became totally blocked. Even sending controls to all limits doesn't help. I didn't write about that issue jet. Had to test it more to figure out when it happens.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Mirtma

[kylania]

Ahh, after watching you fly and trying it myself I noticed two things. 1) I truly can't fly and 2) I was doing it totally wrong. I kept activating trim, then releasing it then trying to reset it. By simply repeatedly setting it, I flew a lot steadier.

[159th_Viper]

As far as I remember, in BS1 I could press trim button, change direction, altitude etc. with pressed and then release trim. Without FD. Now, as soon as I press trim, bird jump up.

 

For further clarification: In my track provided I change attitude, press and release trim, change attitude, press and release trim and so on. Accords with RL procedure. Try that as opposed to Press-Change-Release.

 

Edit: What Kylania said in #2 :)

[Mirtma]

For further clarification: In my track provided I change attitude, press and release trim, change attitude, press and release trim and so on. Accords with RL procedure. Try that as opposed to Press-Change-Release.

 

Edit: What Kylania said in #2 :)

 

Tnx, I'll try.

[galagamo]

On my G940 I use the center slop to kind of walk the cyclic around the ranges and yes the helo is pitching up upon releasing the trim so Im guessing this isn't accurate/realistic behavior. I'm sure this is all known just wanted to chime in

[159th_Viper]

And still sometimes occurs, that control became totally blocked. Even sending controls to all limits doesn't help. I didn't write about that issue jet. Had to test it more to figure out when it happens.

 

In reply to edit, unticking the 'CENTRAL POSITION TRIMMER MODE' box will solve that issue.

[crazysundog]

I also have the "pitch-up after trim" problem here with my MSFFB2...

 

very dissapointed.

Also, there doesn't seem to be a "\DCS Black Shark 2\Config\producer.cfg" in my install?! I couldn't find it while checking to see if FFB was enabled.

[Nate--IRL--]

FFB is set in the options now on the misc page

[PeterP]

Here is a video -

both simulations run side by side in 1024x768 windowed and in very low settings - and both get the exact same DirectX commands.

Sorry for the sluggish FPS , but this is not very surprising when running two instances of DCS at the same time and capturing it.

 

Here is my posting with my explanation again:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1321019#post1321019

[Nate--IRL--]

Peter Excellent video. Could I ask for a few more?

 

I'll assume this is with FFB on. I'd like to see one with the FD/FFB on. and one with FFB off.

 

Nate