Where is everyone?

[Grimes]

What pitfalls? Can you be more specific?

 

I'm sure he has his own reasons, but to me there are a few basic pitfalls. Keep in mind that I like what we can do with FC3, but I hate what WILL happen when it is released.

 

1. LockOn multiplayer is A2A focused. Yes there is A2G, but it simply doesn't take the same priority as the air combat.

 

2. Lack of specialized servers. There were a few BS or FC2 only servers, but not many. Having FC3, DCS, or DCS+FC3 servers will be important, and I honestly hope we will see more specific game servers and less mixed. Aside from the actual game(s) being used, I'm thinking more along the lines of what is actually being player in the mission. I mean having co-op servers, air combat only servers, air to ground only servers, and "abit of everything" servers. Additionally in FC2 the aircraft selection in multiplayer is often setup to be appeasing to all. By that I mean as many aircraft on both sides as possible. For the most part the Su-33 and A-10A were the only unique aircraft to a coalition.

 

3. Lack of variety in mission design. Alot of us are guilty of it, but for the most part multiplayer missions tended to have a common A2A combat area, and then for some reason or another the A2G mission was buried deep into friendly territory. Couple this with point 2, and most servers are running the same basic style of mission.

 

4. The BS doesn't fit in well with F-15s and other fighters in terms of its warning systems. Its meant for counter insurgency ops and the lack of a RWR allowed for some opportune fighter pilots to annoy the hell out of the Ka-50 pilots. The A-10C will fair ALOT better due to its RWR and MWS. But it does introduce an interesting dynamic of DCS A-10C mixed with SFM A-10A, and again because of point 2, you will likely see A-10C on both sides.

[Smokin Hole]

Crap! How did that happen?

 

I meant to quote my own post above and instead changed it. Sorry.

[159th_Viper]

Crap! How did that happen?

 

Easily done :)

 

When you quote others, the 'quote' tab is leftmost. When quoting yourself, the 'edit' tab is leftmost. Had it happen to me too.

[141st_Eko1]

Easy gents.

 

Simple fact is that MP and VOIP are intimidating to some players. So sampling TS or Ventrilo servers doesn't exactly give you a full picture of the number of active players. That said a defacto "place to hang out" before a flight would be nice. Ive said it many times, but this is one thing Hyperlobby did well and its sorely missed in DCS. Hell, I got to know quite a few people from simply chatting in HL rather than actually flying.

 

+1

[Frostie]

Quoting myself so that I don't need multiple quotes (read: lazy).

 

Grimes basically nailed my concerns. A few days after FC2 was online merged with BS1 I went on Teamspeak with the 104th. I had grown a bit tired of "Smokin Hole killed by Building" and grabbed a F-15 with Blue. On comms some guy (née a true gentleman) was giggling like a little girl after having splashed is 20th Ka50 in two days. That very same day, I quit multiplayer. Its not that I don't like PvP because I do. But the mindset is different than co-op. There is really nothing about PvP that will increase the enjoyment for a player flying CAS. There are more than enough threats either on the ground or close to the ground to keep him challenged. Adding F-15s with 28 AIM-120s bolted to the wings canopy and tail adds nothing positive to the experience for the slow-moving player. My reserevations are diminished however because, as others have said, this can all be controlled by the mission designer and the host. I will just avoid servers that are PvP (unless I am in a fighter).

 

Of course, i wasn't talking Vikhrs when I mentioned shared laser codes. The Ka50 has a laser that can be used to designate for another player. That same arrangement could, in theory, be used with an LGB from a Su25. Or maybe not. I havent a clue how Russia does theses things. But otherwise what's the point of more participants on the battlefield if they don't have anything to offer each other but "Nice shot! S!" ?

For me nailing just a couple of ground targets and making it home in a fighter rich environment is a hell of a lot more rewarding than endlessly butchering 30+ units with little threat other than those very same AI 'fishes in the barrel' i'm butchering.

 

I like a challenging environment and I understand that if such a similair war broke out that is portrayed in these online missions flying around in a Kamov, Frog or Hog would be a hell of a lot harder than it is now with the general lonewolf fighter pilots that happen upon a lot in servers, flying these missions with buddies makes it all the more rewarding and easier to be successful. The whole point of a fighter is to gain air superiority to defend his own units and give his strikers the chance to attack the enemies ground units. Without this element the whole concept is a stale training exercise in how to move mud.

 

For them reasons I would never consider the environment served up in single play mode.

Horses for courses I guess.

[104th_Cobra]

The fact that our side doesn't have the air supremacy will make us adapt our objectives, routes and tactics. Is not difficult to disappear in the terrain, with a ka-50. More difficult with an attack plane, but not impossible.

It's a matter of learning to like the adrenalin rush of completing a mission in a difficult environment. For that is important to have some level of coordination on comms (TS or whatever). The idea to integrate, somehow, VOIP on DCS will elevate the level of imersion.

[Smokin Hole]

There is no way to hide AND FIGHT. If I understand GG correctly the radar is going to be improved. I just don't see how CAS types can survive in an environment where their side does not enjoy complete air superiority. But there is only one way to find out. And we will.

[GGTharos]

Improving the radar model doesn't necessarily mean making it more perfect - just more realistic. Sure, helis might be visible very far and never fall into the notch, but at the same time maybe missile fuzes will be improved too, and they'll blow before reaching the chopper (triggered against the ground) ... or perhaps a smarter missile will fly a trajectory that will never take it close enough to the ground, too ...

And then, maybe your ECM will be more effective, too. There are a lot of aspects to modeling radar, and making it 'better' does not necessarily imply making it deadlier. Sometimes it's just the opposite. I'm not making any statements about FC or DCS though - just stating an opinion.

 

In any case, complete air superiority is not necessary. It means you'll take more casualties, but it doesn't mean your ground-pounders can't do work. But in all cases it -does- make it imperative that the ground-pounders themselves understand and can execute enough defensive techniques to make their own side's fighters yummier to the other side's fighters. This is a team effort: If the ground pounders just fly straight into a MiG while shouting 'there's a mig nail! Come help us!' then it's their own fault, really. And yes, people online do do this, either because they have no patience, or because they do not know better.

You might not be able to hide and fight at the same time (not true in all cases, and you can actually help yourself out there by setting up the correct geometry for your attack!) but a little hiding can get you fighting in a reasonably short amount of time. Evade their fighters, your fighters will push them away, and you attack your ground target.

 

There is no way to hide AND FIGHT. If I understand GG correctly the radar is going to be improved. I just don't see how CAS types can survive in an environment where their side does not enjoy complete air superiority. But there is only one way to find out. And we will.

Edited December 25, 2011 by GGTharos

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Well truth be told, in a KA-50 unless you have another jet with RWR tip you off to incoming jets your pretty much in a bad way. Even if they do it is slim that you will survive. Since they can not tell if its friend or foe (and by that I mean Su25T's which is what your most likely going to be flying with).... well you get the picture. I can't very well go run and hide every time a friendly RWR makes a beep.

 

Which brings me to this.... Is FC3 going to model Friend or Foe more? Right now only the F-15 uses it right? I know that the identifier on the BS says no function. Does that mean an F-15 can not tell if a KA-50 is a friend or foe?

 

If DCS is going to make more fast movers they really need to get on that non functioning friend or foe. Does the A-10C have it?

[Grimes]

The sim simply needs more functionality in terms of getting tactical information to players. Being on a VOIP will bring the biggest advantage, but not everyone will do that, thus something needs to get added to the sim to minimize the issue. How useful would it be if AWACS, GCI, or ATC told the player that all friendly fighters near him have been downed and to head 240 to be in a safer area? (sam coverage or nearest friendly fighter heading toward the fight) Or to be told orbit at the current location to wait for fighter support rather than going it alone?

 

Perhaps a passive improvement could be implemented allowing the F10 map view to display the current radar picture as provided by a sides radar sites before take-off. Overlay your own waypoints on top of it and bam, you can have a pretty clear idea of where friendlies and enemies are relative to your own task.

[Heli Shed]

Perhaps a passive improvement could be implemented allowing the F10 map view to display the current radar picture as provided by a sides radar sites before take-off. Overlay your own waypoints on top of it and bam, you can have a pretty clear idea of where friendlies and enemies are relative to your own task.

 

or simply allow 'all' to be viewed in F10 view by the mission designer???

[GGTharos]

The RWR would be useful, but the Ka-50 doesn't strictly need it, since it can constantly fly inside the notch if the pilot know what he's doing. He'll just never show up on radar.

 

Well truth be told, in a KA-50 unless you have another jet with RWR tip you off to incoming jets your pretty much in a bad way. Even if they do it is slim that you will survive. Since they can not tell if its friend or foe (and by that I mean Su25T's which is what your most likely going to be flying with).... well you get the picture. I can't very well go run and hide every time a friendly RWR makes a beep.

 

Which brings me to this.... Is FC3 going to model Friend or Foe more? Right now only the F-15 uses it right? I know that the identifier on the BS says no function. Does that mean an F-15 can not tell if a KA-50 is a friend or foe?

 

IFF has always worked well in all ED products. The reason it is non-functional is because it is 'always on'.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

Thank you for that clarification GGTharos.

[Eddie]

The RWR would be useful, but the Ka-50 doesn't strictly need it, since it can constantly fly inside the notch if the pilot know what he's doing. He'll just never show up on radar.

 

 

 

 

 

IFF has always worked well in all ED products. The reason it is non-functional is because it is 'always on'.

 

Here's hoping neither of those things will be true when it cones to DCS fighter. :)

[Grimes]

or simply allow 'all' to be viewed in F10 view by the mission designer???

 

That would be a little unfair to the players who are flying low actually avoiding detection or to the manpads in the most random locations that would be easily known with all visible on the map. The point is it just shows whatever your teams networked radars see to give the player an idea of what it looks like out there. Plus it could add some strategic depth and importance to taking said radars out of action.

[GGTharos]

... and if ECM/ECCM were in play, not to mention multi-path radio simulation and other fun things, oh the amount of TK's due to not running your ID matrix ... :D

 

Here's hoping neither of those things will be true when it cones to DCS fighter. :)

[Heli Shed]

When FC3 is released, the 'true' CAP and Interdiction type operations will be crucial to support A2G efforts on this mission:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=83397

 

By virtue of the fact that this is a 'fun' and 'stable' mission, I will be ensuring that when FC3 does get released, that those who fly Fast Air will be able to enjoy this mission too.

 

Ultimately, no air superiority (against an enemy that has the capability) means limited options in ground warfare. Essentially in modern doctrine, out goes the big 'green machine' and more covert espionage type operations take place, namely SF.

 

Enjoy.

 

'T'

Edited December 25, 2011 by Tyger

[grandkodiak]

multiplayer... where are you all?

 

are there any hyperlobby type programs that all the dcs people are using? or teamspeak servers etc?

[ZQuickSilverZ]

No the players are all kind of spread around which in my opinion is part of the problem.

 

The best thing to do is this

1. Find a server that is populated

2. Find out what squadron runs that server

3. Visit the squads information page

4. Get the squads TS information

 

The LYNX server requires a TS connection to play on thier server. To me ALL servers should require a TS connection.

[104th_Crunch]

Come on DCS Fighter Jet!

[Smokin Hole]

...since it can constantly fly inside the notch if the pilot know what he's doing. He'll just never show up on radar...

 

Um, is my memory failing me or am I wrong in my recollection of a thread where you stated there really isn't a notch for a helicopter because it has rotors spinning furiously regardless of the velocity of the fuselage?

[GGTharos]

In reality, yes. In the game, you have a stealth, notch-capable Ka-50.

[Heli Shed]

In reality, yes. In the game, you have a stealth, notch-capable Ka-50.

 

If you are stationary yeah, but otherwise you'll get picked up like everyone else.

 

no?

[GGTharos]

Nope, the notch is 144kph wide beyond 10km, ~70kph wide inside 10km. Now if you happen to be suffering from micro-warping on the fighter's computer, then you'll be intermittently picked up since you're likely to momentarily exceed the notch ...

[Cali]

If you are stationary yeah, but otherwise you'll get picked up like everyone else.

 

no?

 

That's not true, I have lost slow moving Ka's well within 20nm. I only picked them up visually cause I knew where they were.