Couple more AAR questions

[OutOnTheOP]

Ok, so, still working on getting aerial refueling down pat; it seems like one mission I can take a full tank smooth as butter, and the next I flail all over the boom. (*edit* I think I might be practicing too much? After a few goes at it, I find myself getting impatient and chasing the boom...)

 

One of the things I was curious about: in DCS, does the boom impart force onto the receiving aircraft? I seem to recall AAR being MUCH easier in Falcon 4, as once the boom latched in, it tended to stabilize your aircraft (though I imagine it was more than in reality; in F4, I could almost go hands-off once I made connection; the tanker would just drag me around the sky by the fuel leash :D )

 

I get the impression the boom does impart some force, but not very much... I generally seem to get a very slight pitch down when I make contact. Not sure if this is just me subconciously flinching away from the boom.

 

On a total aside, I wonder why they put the receptacle on the A-10 where they did? The boom always obscures my vision of the position reference lights on the tanker, and since the boom (in real life) imparts force into the receiving aircraft, you would think they'd want it somewhere near the center of gravity of the aircraft, so the boom doesn't cause pitch or roll issues when it makes contact. The F-16 receptacle location makes so much more sense to me. ....

 

*edit* *editted the spelling of "edit" :D* Hmm.... only reason I can think they put the receptacle way up in the nose like that is due to the A-10 intake locations? I guess throwing a steel pipe into a rapidly spinning metal spindle leads to Bad Things . Just ask Nazi motorcylist!

 

*edit* Hmm... I guess that was really just one question... unless you count rhetoricals?

Edited January 1, 2012 by OutOnTheOP

[FreeFall]

I find myself getting impatient and chasing the boom...)

 

Don't chase the boom. The boom operator will chase you.

 

Good thread:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=72914

 

And about the reference lights of the tanker. No use with DCS A-10C (AFAIK). F-16 is another story.

[OutOnTheOP]

Yeah... it's just hard not to when you're on your fifth try at the mission and frustrated and thinking "I'm not gonna give up until I get this right!"

 

...which is, of course, about the right time to give up and take a break :doh:

 

*edit* by the way, the Blue Angels AAR vid in that link is simultaneously very demoralizing (since he makes it look so easy) and encouraging (because he bounces around the end of the boom quite a bit, and if the Blue Angles can't hold a rock solid welded-to-the-tanker formation, I certainly feel better that I can't). Although, he was also in cloud, and no doubt significant turbulence.

Edited January 1, 2012 by OutOnTheOP

[FreeFall]

That is a very nice vid.

 

Direct link:

[Snoopy]

All real world documentation talks about the difficulty of seeing the tanker reference light. Also, after talking to some of our real world A-10 pilots they all said a 135 boom isnt strong enough to latch and hold an A-10 but a KC-10 is....

 

I've never tanked in Falcon but from what I've been told by those who have thousands of hours in falcon is that once locked on the bool the sim helps making it easier...but again I've never don't it so I don't know.

[effte]

F4 is cheating and engaging a "tractor beam" once latched on. Even in BMS. No idea why.

[Tornado_Pilot]

Also, after talking to some of our real world A-10 pilots they all said a 135 boom isnt strong enough to latch and hold an A-10 but a KC-10 is....

 

 

What exactly do you mean by "latching"? Like "pulling" the A10 a bit towards the tanker?

[Snoopy]

When the boom locks to the AR receptacle.

[Xxx]

OutOnTheOp, I have flown F4 for many hours, previous to this superb sim! F4 has some sort of an override flight control built in. I dont think its at all realistic. I too could refuel an F16 in F4 ...easy!;)

 

The system in A10 is far more realistic! Very difficult, sat staring at our PC monitors. Here is an extract and a link. The boom is a fantastic piece of kit. Not simple at all.

 

 

"The COUPLED mode of the flight control system is designed to partially alleviate nozzle loads and allow the boom to follow receiver movements. "

 

http://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/kc-10-boom-on-a-kc-135/

 

 

I am calmer doing a straffing run on a SAM than when trying to re fuel the Hog!!:)

[Jona33]

OutOnTheOp, I have flown F4 for many hours, previous to this superb sim! F4 has some sort of an override flight control built in. I dont think its at all realistic. I too could refuel an F16 in F4 ...easy!;)

 

The system in A10 is far more realistic! Very difficult, sat staring at our PC monitors. Here is an extract and a link. The boom is a fantastic piece of kit. Not simple at all.

 

 

"The COUPLED mode of the flight control system is designed to partially alleviate nozzle loads and allow the boom to follow receiver movements. "

 

http://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2009/05/11/kc-10-boom-on-a-kc-135/

 

 

I am calmer doing a straffing run on a SAM than when trying to re fuel the Hog!!:)

 

Especially against long range SAM's as long as you're close enough. Attempting to refuel is bloody difficult and I've died several times from crashing into the boom a bit hard.

[GGTharos]

Ok, so, still working on getting aerial refueling down pat; it seems like one mission I can take a full tank smooth as butter, and the next I flail all over the boom. (*edit* I think I might be practicing too much? After a few goes at it, I find myself getting impatient and chasing the boom...)

 

Yep .. when this happens, stop. You're no longer learning. Also, give yourself a break for a little while, you'll be more relaxed next time.

 

One of the things I was curious about: in DCS, does the boom impart force onto the receiving aircraft?

 

Very little in-game.

 

On a total aside, I wonder why they put the receptacle on the A-10 where they did? The boom always obscures my vision of the position reference lights on the tanker, and since the boom (in real life) imparts force into the receiving aircraft, you would think they'd want it somewhere near the center of gravity of the aircraft, so the boom doesn't cause pitch or roll issues when it makes contact. The F-16 receptacle location makes so much more sense to me. ....

 

You don't need the lights. Just fix your references to the tanker and you'll be fine :)

[OutOnTheOP]

Well... no, I guess I don't "need" the lights, but they'd be nice for getting a good "feel" for what the right "sight picture" (for lack of a better phrase) should look like when in the right position with the tanker. Without the lights, it's hard to vizualize where I am in the boom's elevation limits. I'm sure with experience, it's easier to tell, but it's hard to get that experience when there's no reference on what right "should" look like.

 

Because I couldn't see the reference lights, I spent a fair bit of time conducting my tanking on the high edge of the boom elevation limit before I got a better feel for where the center of it's limits was; in the simulator, it's hard to tell the difference between getting too high and getting too close- the primary visual cue of closure (at least for me) is the boom color markings, and the boom might telescope in either because I'm drifting up, or drifting forward (worst is drifting up AND forward; then the tanker doesn't seem to change position, just the boom color)...

 

It'd be nice if there was a way to get the tanker to turn on the reference lights and NOT lower the boom, so players could see the reference lights and practice getting into the correct position

[GGTharos]

I think you can achieve the same thing with flying reference off the tanker instead of the lights. You shouldn't even really need to look at the boom much.

[Wolf Rider]

something which may help...

 

 

[OutOnTheOP]

GG, I meant, if one flies reference off the tanker without the lights, it's easy to get into bad habits: you might be flying in rock solid formation, but consistently doing so at the edge of the boom envelope. It'd just be a nice training aid if you could practice on the tanker with lights on and the boom out of the way. Neccesary? No, but it'd be nice. Not that I'd want dev work prioritized on something so small...

[OutOnTheOP]

Well, I'm getting more consistent... or at least, seem to expend less effort in refueling now. Attached is one of my better attempts. I think the first half went better than the second... and the idiot BO keeps giving random disconnect instructions, but... Speaking of which, he didn't give a "transfer complete", he gave a "disconnect" when it was done. At least, I think it was done; I was still displaying latched, but didn't seem to be accepting any more fuel.

 

I'm still having a little trouble, and I think it's mostly engine management. I have my TMWH throttle friction lock all the way off, but the throttle still feels too stiff for tiny slow adjustments. I've taken to the "bump it up, then pull back" methodology... which seems to work most of the time, but occasionally it puts in too much throttle movement. I've also tried walking one throttle at a time *very* slowly, but I've found that generally doesn't provide a response fast enough to arrest drift; if the drift is enough that I can perceive it, it's already enough that walking the throttle doesn't make the desired correction until I'm way out at one end of the boom or the other.

 

Suggestions?

 

*edit* Hmmm... after reviewing my .trk, apparently the best advice would be "don't crash into ocean*. Interesting... anyone else having trouble with .trk files?

 

I should note I'm using Helios... does that prevent .trks from recording properly? I noticed none of my switch flips showed up in the replay; in the first few seconds, it should have switched to TACAN 10X airborne receive, but... didn't. Nor did the lights come on when they were supposed to... nor did master arm go off. Only the HOTAS inputs seem to have been recorded. (I suspect the "nosing over into the ocean" bit was caused from when I re-trimmed down and slight left after turning master arm off/ EAC turned off. Since the .trk never recorded the MA switch flip, it just put the trim in as "a lot of down trim", and into the drink I go!)

 

*edit 2* ok... I thought my replay error might have been caused by having Helios running while RE-playing the .trk, somehow causing some kind of .lua input wierdness. Not the case; ran the replay again WITHOUT Helios on, and it did the same thing; straight into the sea. Anyone else having this problem?

 

*edit 3* wait... it would make sense if it was recording all the inputs put in from the HOTAS, but not Helios.... except that it DOES appear to have recorded that I turned the CMSP to standby... or at least, it displays standby on the CMSC in the replay.... and that switch is on my Helios profile *completely confused now*

 

*edit 4* for anyone else having .trk-related issues, the thread at http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=75288&highlight=helios+track&page=3 seems to indicate Helios DOES bork recording. ....well, I guess no recordings for me, then. I don't know if I COULD fly without Helios anymore >.<

Moderately smooth.trk

Edited January 2, 2012 by OutOnTheOP

[FreeFall]

*edit* Hmmm... after reviewing my .trk, apparently the best advice would be "don't crash into ocean*. Interesting... anyone else having trouble with .trk files?

 

I should note I'm using Helios... does that prevent .trks from recording properly?

 

I use Helios and I crash into ocean as well if I replay the track.

 

My explanation:

Seemingly the recorded track won't contain the Helios inputs. Before contacting the tanker you normally switch Master Arm and GUN/PAC to SAFE and switch Air Refuel Control Lever to Open. After those procedures you have to adjust your pitch to compensate/keep the level.

 

Because the Helios inputs are not recorded, after starting your recorded track playback you simply crash into ocean.

 

EDIT: See this thread:

http://www.scsimulations.com/showthread.php?1677-weird-things-with-a10-helios-homemade-panels

Edited January 2, 2012 by FreeFall
added link

[OutOnTheOP]

Yeah, I tried again with Helios and TrackIR off, and it recorded fine (see below). Boy does it feel awkward to not use the Helios setup now that I'm used to it. BTW, the crazy view shifts in the first recording were from a combination of (1) me getting out of my chair to fix the USB connection to one of my touchscreens, which wasn't recording input, and (2) looking down at the "console" touchscreens on the armrests next to my seat. TrackIR doesn't track right when I turn my head that far.

 

This second attempt wasn't QUITE as good as the previous tanking (so frustrating losing connection with only a few hundred pounds to go!), but at least it recorded properly... and actually probably does a better job of illustrating the throttle issues I'm having, as I had to put in some pretty extreme input changes (well, extreme for while connected to a tanker, anyhow)

 

But it does confirm that Helios appears to be the root of the problem. I guess it's a good thing I've never much felt the need to record tracks?

Not quite as good.trk

[FreeFall]

 

But it does confirm that Helios appears to be the root of the problem.

 

Or actually DCS A-10C.

 

Gadroc: "..this is likely a bug in DCS. It looks like it's not recording switch changes trigger by LUA calls."

[OutOnTheOP]

I suppose you could argue it either way. I look at it this way: Helios was designed to run with DCS, while DCS was NOT designed explicitly to run with Helios... DCS is doing what it's supposed to (that is, record tracks with an uncorrupted install), and doesn't do what it's not intended to do (record tracks with a modified install).

 

But either way you look at it, the DCS+Helios combination doesn't record tracks correctly.

[FreeFall]

 

But either way you look at it, the DCS+Helios combination doesn't record tracks correctly.

 

You're right. AFAIK, it really doesn't. Too bad.

[OutOnTheOP]

Yeah, I know... it's a good thing I don't feel inclined to record tracks very often (this being the first), because there's NO WAY I can part with my Helios setup

[FreeFall]

Maybe the comparison is not fair, but anyway: With every rally/sports car game/sim you can record a track and replay it easily. You can choose different angles, you can slomo, you can ff and rewind, or watch the recording frame by frame.

 

With DCS A-10C you simply cannot. It would be nice, but I can live with it. I mean, without it. No problem.

[Tailgate]

Well, I'm getting more consistent... or at least, seem to expend less effort in refueling now. Attached is one of my better attempts. I think the first half went better than the second... and the idiot BO keeps giving random disconnect instructions, but... Speaking of which, he didn't give a "transfer complete", he gave a "disconnect" when it was done. At least, I think it was done; I was still displaying latched, but didn't seem to be accepting any more fuel.

 

 

...

 

 

 

Yeah, I was wondering about the disconnect vs Transfer Complete. I had a single connect taking 8k then tanker tells me to disconnect. It looked like I was topped off so I disconnected. I get in form with tanker and tells me to return to pre-contact? I aborted rejoin.

 

I flew a AAR mission in MP today, got the disconnect again when full. This time I decided to reconnect to see if I could get a few more drops. I connected but no juice.