Point Lock/Maverick Lock objects on FARP

[TurboHog]

Hi,

 

First of all (first post :smilewink:): I've been playing DCS - A10C for two months now and I've never flown such a realistic sim before. Not even PMDG comes close to this. Really enjoyable!

 

However I've found a problem and possibly a small bug if other people can reproduce the following problem:

 

Yesterday I was flying Dragon's Hamburger Hill and I wanted to destroy the enemy SAM-systems on the enemy farp. Problem is, when an enemy object is on a farp, you cant point-lock the object if the farp is on the background. It will point-lock the farp as an object and loses track of the vehicle you wanted to engage on the farp. Sometimes it will point-track the vehicle but only in inr-p mode (even when flying straight towards object).

 

The same thing goes for the maverick. If you slew the maverick it will track the vehicle you want to engage but when you try to launch the missile it sais: track inhibit... Also, if you track the object with your TGP (in area mode since point mode doesn't work as explained) as SPI, slave the sensors to SPI, and then press TMS up short with your mavericks SOI, it won't work...

 

I was able to destroy the vehicles after all. I used TGP area mode and climbed to lvl250 and dropped 2 CBU-105's... They took care of the vehicles...

[RglsPhoto]

IIRC,The TGP should be in point mode if you want to set the SPI via TGP.

[TurboHog]

IIRC,The TGP should be in point mode if you want to set the SPI via TGP.

 

That is not the problem...

 

TGP can be your SPI in any mode (inr, area, point, inr-a, inr-p) if you press TMS up long. I've also dropped LGB's using area mode with TGP as SPI.

 

The problem is that you can't achieve a point lock or maverick lock when an object is on a FARP.

 

Anyone able to reproduce this problem/stumbled upon the same thing already?

[159th_Viper]

IIRC,The TGP should be in point mode if you want to set the SPI via TGP.

 

No - does not have to be. SPI is set at TGP LOS with TMS Fwd Long.

 

 

 

The same thing goes for the maverick. If you slew the maverick it will track the vehicle you want to engage but when you try to launch the missile it sais: track inhibit....

 

That message means that your Maverick is in a non-tracked state and as such incapable of being launched. Toggle to a tracked state by TMS Fwd Short until tracking gate collapses and then launch.

 

 

Also, if you track the object with your TGP (in area mode since point mode doesn't work as explained) as SPI, slave the sensors to SPI, and then press TMS up short with your mavericks SOI, it won't work.....

 

It works fine. Ensure your Mavs are tracking prior to attempting launch. Herewith two tracks illustrating, one an engagement against a M48 Chaparral and the other a Tor 9M331.

 

Chaparral.trk

 

Tor.trk

 

Welcome to the Forums :)

[Eddie]

More of a sim limitation than a bug, if the TGP/Mav is looking closeer to the track point of the FARP than the vehicles, it'll track the FARP . But to get around it, just use Area mode on the TGP (you only need point track for moving objects anyway), and/or force correlate on the mavs.

[TurboHog]

Sorry, but no-one seems to understand the problem...

 

I know how mavericks work and know why they won't launch if not in a tracked state. I am always succesfull in engaging with mavericks, so let me explain again what the actual problem is:

 

Imagine there is a Tunguska standing on a FARP. I use the same procedure that always works when a target is not on a FARP:

 

- Align Mavericks, Select in DSMS, Arm weapons

- Search for target with TGP then Point lock the target Problem: Not able to point track the object, Point tracks the FARP as object instead of vehicle on the FARP

- If the target is point locked I make it my SPI and switch to mavericks

- I then slave sensors to SPI (China Hat FWD long)

- I try to achieve a lock using TMS up short with maverick SOI Problem: Doesnt work when object is standing on a FARP

- Alternatively I slew the mavs to a target, Also in this case the object on the FARP cannot be locked...

 

If the object is not on a FARP I usually achieve a mav lock around 7.5nm from the tgt.

 

The FARP is the problem! The TGP detects it as an object and automaticly locks on to it when you go in point track mode, disregarding all other objects on the FARP. Same for the mavericks. They won't lock on objects on the FARP. Only way is dropping guided bombs at 25000ft to avoid the Tunguska (using area track/inr mode with TGP SPI or using marks on the target as steerpoints with steerpoint SPI)

 

Using Force/Correlate is worth a try, thought it was for buildings and large objects only... Still, objects moving on the FARP can't be followed. I think this is a bug because it should be possible. The problem is that a FARP is defined as an object. So you basicly have an object on an object and the TGP then tracks the larger object, which is the FARP.

Edited January 18, 2012 by TurboHog
New post

[159th_Viper]

Sorry, but no-one seems to understand the problem...

 

We understand just fine ;)

 

As to the first part of your perceived problem, ie Point-Track on the FARP: As Eddie said, a SIM-limitation. Do not use it as it is not necessary.

 

 

As to the second part of your problem, ie Objects on the FARP not locking:

 

I told you that objects do lock on the FARP and that there is no problem. Not expecting you to take my word for it, I also provided you with two tracks illustrating that objects on a FARP can indeed be locked with a Mav and successfully engaged and yet you tell me that I do not understand the problem.

 

What exactly then is the problem as I still do not understand :)

 

Have you watched the tracks I linked you to?

[Eddie]

I know exactly what you're talking about, the reason for and the solution to the problem is in my post right above yours.

[TurboHog]

Yes I see the tracks... about the first one:

 

So did you use force/correlate or TMS up short to achieve that lock. In my case the last option didn't work, it really didn't.

 

I see you lased the target, I did not. Maybe that was required to lock the object using TMS up short?

[159th_Viper]

 

So did you use force/correlate or TMS up short to achieve that lock

 

No - you cannot utilize Forced Correlate with the D-Mav in any event.

 

Another thing to remember is that when a vehicle is on a FARP, you are going to have to get closer than what you would normally get in any event to obtain a valid track - the Mav seeker is just not clever enough to distinguish your target from the FARP as opposed to when the target is in a field somewhere. Be that as it may, you will always be able to get a valid track on a FARP.

 

With Forced Correlate you can launch from 9 miles distant if you really wanted to, but that's another procedure entirely. If you wish I can post another track illustrating Forced Correlate - let me know.

 

 

In my case the last option didn't work, it really didn't.

 

 

Keep in mind that you have to continue hitting TMS Fwd Short until you get a valid tracking solution.

 

 

I see you lased the target, I did not. Maybe that was required to lock the object using TMS up short?

 

No - not necessary. Just a force of habit I have in order to correctly set the SPI - has nothing to do with toggling track on the Mav.

[TurboHog]

I will take control of your flight and see if I can do the same...

 

I will do excactly what I did yesterday, which should work after all... I don't understand why it didnt work...

 

Edit:

 

When i was 6.6 miles out I achieved a lock and succesfully took out the target. By doing what I did yesterday...

 

Still the same procedure did't work yesterday and I'm not saying this because im afraid to lose face. I'll have to find out what was wrong (maybe because there were two FARP's next to eachother and partly overlapping?)

 

Still point tracking doesn't work but it seems I have to accept that as a 'sim limitation'.

Edited January 18, 2012 by TurboHog

[159th_Viper]

Still the same procedure did't work yesterday and I'm not saying this because im afraid to lose face. I'll have to find out what was wrong (maybe because there were two FARP's next to eachother and partly overlapping?

 

Where your launch-parameters identical in the two tests? I have found that altitude amongst others also effects when a valid track is obtained.

 

 

Still point tracking doesn't work but it seems I have to accept that as a 'sim limitation'.

 

Well, the chances of a vehicle doing loops on a FARP is pretty slim and as point track is not needed in any event against a stationary vehicle/object, it's a minor limitation at best.

 

Glad to see you got it working :)

[TurboHog]

So I created a mission with six vehicles on a FARP...

 

I go through the same procedure that always works for me (most of my kills are mav kills).

 

Please watch my track. I must be doing something wrong!

 

- I press TMS up short for a lock

- Tried to ground stabilize

- Tried to slew to a target, as you see it detects the targets but when I want to fire it won't let me

 

anyway you can see what I did in the track...

Mav on Farp.trk

[RglsPhoto]

That is not the problem...

 

TGP can be your SPI in any mode (inr, area, point, inr-a, inr-p) if you press TMS up long. I've also dropped LGB's using area mode with TGP as SPI.

 

The problem is that you can't achieve a point lock or maverick lock when an object is on a FARP.

 

Anyone able to reproduce this problem/stumbled upon the same thing already?

 

 

Thanks for telling me that ,you are right

[Rider1]

In the Hamburger hill mission you will be very lucky to get any MAV flavors to lock onto units sitting on the FARP texture within a safe engagement distance.

 

Same applies to the FARP at the base of the Valley in Hardcore terrorists.

[TurboHog]

Did anyone see what I did wrong?

 

I was able to use the maverick when I took control in viper's track, but in my own mission (same situation!) it couldn't lock on a target that was standing on a FARP. Check out the track...

[159th_Viper]

Did anyone see what I did wrong?

 

I was able to use the maverick when I took control in viper's track, but in my own mission (same situation!) it couldn't lock on a target that was standing on a FARP. Check out the track...

 

Had a wee thought about this and it might have to do with the parameters that govern when the Mav seeker obtains a valid track. In other words, certain vehicles are, for lack of a better phrase, 'easier to track' In-SIM with the Mav seeker than others, as indeed would be the case in RL too.

 

Now with regard to your example, the SAM systems on a FARP can be tracked by the MAV seeker. The IFV, on the other hand, cannot, as illustrated in your track. I'm venturing an educated guess here, but that behaviour can probably be explained by having regard to the parameters of the Mav seeker and it's ability to obtain a valid track. On the FARP the IFV cannot be tracked as the FARP essentially presents a larger 'track-able target' for the seeker and it thus ignores the IFV (the inherent SIM limitation Eddie mentioned).

 

Conclusion? Save your Mav's for high-priority targets (AAA/SAM) which are capable of being tracked on a FARP and use your cannon on all the rest :)

 

If you really want to engage other vehicles with Mav's then utilize Forced Correlate tracking.

[pcalvert]

This is going to sound like a really stupid question - but..... what is a 'FARP'?

[Inseckt]

Forwards Arming and Refueling Point. Mainly (at least in DCS) used for chopper field deployments...

 

Edit: In DCS it's a static object with helipads...

Edited January 20, 2012 by Inseckt

[whiggy]

We understand just fine ;)

I also provided you with two tracks illustrating that objects on a FARP can indeed be locked with a Mav and successfully engaged

 

Hello Viper. I have the same Problem. Can you also send me the Track?

(martin-m@chello.at)

 

At the Moment, the only solution I found is to engange with AGM65-H and use Forced Correlate.

But this is not a very good solution. I'ts very difficult to center the crosshair on the very small MAV Display objects.

 

Thank you.

Edited March 19, 2012 by whiggy

[TurboHog]

Hello Viper. I have the same Problem. Can you also send me the Track?

(martin-m@chello.at)

 

At the Moment, the only solution I found is to engange with AGM65-H and use Forced Correlate.

But this is not a very good solution. I'ts very difficult to center the crosshair on the very small MAV Display objects.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm afraid there is no other way. I hope they fix it in the next patch.

 

For succesfull force correlate usage:

 

- Find tgt with your TGP, make it your spi

- Slave mavs to your spi, press TMS fwd short while in force/correlate mode

- Fire!

 

Been able to kill specific vehicles on a FARP that way. Just make sure you aim your TGP on the target very well (using area mode).

[whiggy]

I'm afraid there is no other way. I hope they fix it in the next patch.

 

For succesfull force correlate usage:

 

- Find tgt with your TGP, make it your spi

- Slave mavs to your spi, press TMS fwd short while in force/correlate mode

- Fire!

 

Been able to kill specific vehicles on a FARP that way. Just make sure you aim your TGP on the target very well (using area mode).

 

 

Thank you Turbo.

 

Is there a next patch planned?

And Does Eagly Dynamics know this problem?

 

I have the follow main-problem with force/correlate mode:

 

After I made my SPI and align all sensors to the SPI (China-hat-forward-long), My Maverick is aligned to the target and I switched to force/correlate mode. BUT now I have to move the Hotas-Slew-Stick a little bit to get the full cross and fire the missle. That's the probelm! When I move the slew stick, than I get out of the target :( If I not slew the stick, than I cannot fire the missle.

Edited March 19, 2012 by whiggy

[TurboHog]

Thank you Turbo.

 

Is there a next patch planned?

And Does Eagly Dynamics know this problem?

 

I have the follow main-problem with force/correlate mode:

 

After I made my SPI and align all sensors to the SPI (China-hat-forward-long), My Maverick is aligned to the target and I switched to force/correlate mode. BUT now I have to move the Hotas-Slew-Stick a little bit to get the full cross and fire the missle. That's the probelm! When I move the slew stick, than I get out of the target :( If I not slew the stick, than I cannot fire the missle.

 

After slaving the sensors. Use TMS fwd short (Rctrl + fwd key).

 

Always use this to get a lock (also in auto mode). I never slew my maverick unless I engage multiple targets.

 

Again:

 

- Find tgt in TGP, make SPI

- China hat fwd long

- TMS fwd short to get a lock

[whiggy]

After slaving the sensors. Use TMS fwd short (Rctrl + fwd key).

 

Always use this to get a lock (also in auto mode). I never slew my maverick unless I engage multiple targets.

 

Again:

 

- Find tgt in TGP, make SPI

- China hat fwd long

- TMS fwd short to get a lock

 

 

Ah OK thank you, I wil try it out today :)

[whiggy]

OH, another question:

How to engange FARP targets at night?

 

I think, AGM-65H is not working @ night and AGM-65D has no force/correlate mode.