AT-11 and maneuvering questions

[Hobix]

A recent new comer from a10c I have a few questions about evasive maneuvers and avoiding beam riding munitions.

 

First, and probably the most important question is how is it that I can be traveling at airspeeds in excess 275 and still have at-11 munitions being deadly accurate. From what I understood speed and distance reduces the accuracy of these systems immensly.

 

Because of that I started to break/jousting out every time I was being painted by a laser. The issue im having with this is I can't figure out a method of turning quickly without losing most to all of my airspeed which makes me a sitting duck for the threat that just painted me. I've tried looking on YouTube for example of standard evasive maneuvers but none have the stick/rudder axis tab up :(

 

If someone could put up a track of examples of manuvers I would be immensely greatful :)

[Speed]

A recent new comer from a10c I have a few questions about evasive maneuvers and avoiding beam riding munitions.

 

First, and probably the most important question is how is it that I can be traveling at airspeeds in excess 275 and still have at-11 munitions being deadly accurate. From what I understood speed and distance reduces the accuracy of these systems immensly.

Not really. The missile follows down a special laser beam (it has zones in the beam that the missile can sense). When the missile enters the top zone of the beam, then it can sense its in the top beam, for example. This beam connects the nose of your aircraft to the target. Assuming the target is not moving, then if you are moving straight towards or away from the target, or hovering, the the velocity of the beam is zero everywhere. Even if you are moving perpendicular to the target at max velocity, the velocity of the beam at the target is zero.

 

The intermediate cases, where you are side-slipping when you fire or you fire and immediately put the target at max Shkval gimbal limits and accelerate- that CAN reduce the accuracy in SOME cases. When firing a Vikhr with alot of side slip (or not very well aligned), you will notice that the Vikhr has to initially make much larger adjustments to stay on the beam. If the range is short, then the Vikhr will still be "settling down" by the time it reaches the stationary part of the beam where the target is , and it could actually miss. If you are moving with enough velocity side-ways when you fire your Vikhr, it is possible for the beam to move so fast that the Vikhr flies out of it entirely and is lost.

 

A similar situation arises for targets with a high lateral velocity to you. The Vikhr only needs to correct for the lateral velocity of the beam, so high velocity targets moving towards or away from you are easy to hit. But targets with high lateral velocity the Vikhr can either miss, or the beam could move so fast around the target that the Vikhr is unable to stay within it. This is why all you need to do to evade a beam-rider like the Vikhr is accelerate to a fast enough velocity in a direction perpendicular to the missile shooter.

 

Because of that I started to break/jousting out every time I was being painted by a laser. The issue im having with this is I can't figure out a method of turning quickly without losing most to all of my airspeed which makes me a sitting duck for the threat that just painted me. I've tried looking on YouTube for example of standard evasive maneuvers but none have the stick/rudder axis tab up :(

 

If someone could put up a track of examples of manuvers I would be immensely greatful :)

 

What, did you think the Ka-50 was using an inertialess drive? In order to turn, you have to apply a force on the air to act against your velocity. This will slow you down considerably for tight turns. I don't have a video, but this is basic aerodynamics... no aircraft is capable of turning hard without greatly increasing its drag and slowing down considerably. Sorry. Anyway, a good way to do a very fast turn is to roll about 45-60 degrees, pull back on the cyclic, and provide rudder in the direction of the turn. You may have to increase collective (if you roll far enough you obviously would have very low lift) but be careful not to put too much stress on the blades or they will contact each other. You can turn even faster than this, but you will be losing increasing more and more airspeed in the turn.

 

In fact, slowing down during a turn can be used to your advantage. I often execute a very hard 360 degree turn at a very high angle of bank when I need to slow down very quickly.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Speed

[Hobix]

Thanks for the in depth info especially on how the beam riding works.I guess I'll just have to refine my inputs on the controls during the egress but thanks!!!

[TurboHog]

I think the ATGM's are laser homing like the kh25 missile because I dont see them spiral in flight.. Right?

 

For evasion I always do a max speed sideslip. keep your nose at the missile while flying sideways to maintain a low profile. The laser homing and beam riding missiles pursuit you instead of intercept you, so their accuraxy decreases when you move sideways as seen from your attacker. after the missile missed you should find cover unless more than one missile was fired at once at you. Use the reload time in your advantage.

Edited February 15, 2012 by TurboHog

[WildBillKelsoe]

Ahoy!

The missile evasion should be the last resort and not your primary modus operandi. Use the Mission Planner to learn the safe zones of flight, the SAM sites ranging and add a margin of 5 clicks to that. Use the planner also to study AO elevations, use them to your advantages. Keep your wingman checked in at all times, and beware any aircraft.. If fired upon, flare like hell and evade (extend 10 clicks away from your current position)..

 

Try flying nap of the earth. Keep your shkval on and scanning potential AO for SAM and potential hostiles. Use the cockpit zoom feature more than the shkval and visually scan each direction for a 20 sec interval (4 sectors takes a minute, 20 secs). Proceed under cover of buildings and obstacles.

 

Most importantly, DO NOT fight aircraft unless absolutely necessary (ordered to do so (never implemented)..

 

Finally, remember, the shark is an attack helicopter, and serves as a scout. Use the PRTz Datalink whenever a target is located. Do not stay on the same spot for more than 10 mins. Relocate..

[Griffin]

I think the ATGM's are laser homing like the kh25 missile because I dont see them spiral in flight.. Right?

 

AT-11 is a beam-rider. The spiraling is due to the cheap and simple control system and not the homing method.

[TurboHog]

AT-11 is a beam-rider. The spiraling is due to the cheap and simple control system and not the homing method.

 

ok ic. The AT-(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) are not am I right?

[159th_Viper]

ok ic. The AT-(1, 2, 3, 4, 5) are not am I right?

 

1,3,4 and 5 are Wire-guided. 2 is Radio-guided.

 

First, and probably the most important question is how is it that I can be traveling at airspeeds in excess 275 and still have at-11 munitions being deadly accurate. From what I understood speed and distance reduces the accuracy of these systems immensly.

 

You're flying right into it :)

 

Yes, speed and distance reduce accuracy - that is however relative. The 9M119 reaches out to 4000m in 11 seconds, travelling at approx 340m/s, not giving you much time to hide at all. That said, the missile is very easy to evade, provided you spot the launch, which is also in itself relatively easy if you have the launch platform in sight.

 

It goes without saying that if you receive the notification from your LWS, disengage and extend. If you wish to engage, ensure you have LOS to the unit you are engaging. Utilize speed and altitude and when you are launched upon, left/right rudder through the floorboard, hard left/right cyclic and dive, putting the threat to your 3/9 o' clock visual. All you need is ten metres or so and you'll evade the missile easily - trick is to manoeuvre as quickly as possible out of plane: Missile will miss.

 

As said, AT-11's are murderously fast. If you are going to get within the launch platform's WEZ, utilize the Shkval too so you can see when he launches and you will then be able to evade accordingly. Wait a second or two too long and you're toast, as illustrated well in the following track -

 

Using speed/altitude I manage to evade 4 out of 5 fired by a T-80. Fifth one tags me because I had insufficient speed/range to get out of the way, even though I spotted the launch.

 

Track captured with BS2: AT-11 evasion.trk

[Hobix]

1,3,4 and 5 are Wire-guided. 2 is Radio-guided.

 

 

 

You're flying right into it :)

 

Yes, speed and distance reduce accuracy - that is however relative. The 9M119 reaches out to 4000m in 11 seconds, travelling at approx 340m/s, not giving you much time to hide at all. That said, the missile is very easy to evade, provided you spot the launch, which is also in itself relatively easy if you have the launch platform in sight.

 

It goes without saying that if you receive the notification from your LWS, disengage and extend. If you wish to engage, ensure you have LOS to the unit you are engaging. Utilize speed and altitude and when you are launched upon, left/right rudder through the floorboard, hard left/right cyclic and dive, putting the threat to your 3/9 o' clock visual. All you need is ten metres or so and you'll evade the missile easily - trick is to manoeuvre as quickly as possible out of plane: Missile will miss.

 

As said, AT-11's are murderously fast. If you are going to get within the launch platform's WEZ, utilize the Shkval too so you can see when he launches and you will then be able to evade accordingly. Wait a second or two too long and you're toast, as illustrated well in the following track -

 

Using speed/altitude I manage to evade 4 out of 5 fired by a T-80. Fifth one tags me because I had insufficient speed/range to get out of the way, even though I spotted the launch.

 

Track captured with BS2: [ATTACH]62751[/ATTACH]

 

Thanks for the great help everyone!

 

I just got off work and will be studying the track immensely :P. Hopefully I'll get it down sooner then later and then dip my toe's into MP. Rather be helpful then a hinder :smartass: