FC MiG-29 discussion (split)

[Alfa]

He's right and you're right - the deal is that while those 13S' were capable of carrying R-77's, had a shooting war started, a whole bunch of them would have probably gotten shot down before they were ever supplied with any R-77's.

 

A little off the mark there GG - had a shooting war started it would probably also have been before the 9-13S'es opposition had been supplied with AIM-120s ;) .

[Vekkinho]

^^^^

He's got a bit of the point, first operational use and kill with AIM-120 was what...September '91 southern watch?!

[Dudikoff]

I guess there's more 9.13S airframes produced than R-77 missiles :music_whistling:

 

IIRC, most of the R-77 stocks were sold to India for their MiG-21 Bisons, suposoedly China, too.. The total numbers were like several hundred compared to what, up to 50 9.13S in Soviet service which were supposedly capable of using the R-77?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Dudikoff

[Dudikoff]

No, it doesn't. In fact these older systems were even more complex to handle. Unless you aren't looking for realism, that's another thing altogether.

 

Difficult to simulate their inner workings, maybe, because they were analog and thus rather complex to simulate properly. But, I'm talking about approximation of their end behaviour (kinda like black boxing them) which is what we can expect in a computer sim and in that regard it is surely easier to do that for those compared to today's systems which are classified (you have declassified documents, pilots who oeprated them, etc.).

 

You mean like F-4's escorting F-4's or F-8's and F-7's? ;)

How do you think the systems differed between those fighters?

 

I said "focus on the more "primitive" variants from the 80s". F-16A (no MRMs), F-15C (no AMRAAMs), F-111s, F-4s, F-14s, F/A-18As, A-6s, A-7s, Tornados, MiG-23/25/27/29s, Su-22/24/25/29s, MiG-31s, etc. I don't know where did you get the F-8s and A-4s and whatever the hell the F-7 is (hopefully, not the Cutlass!?). I wouldn't like to have those planes from the 50s.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Dudikoff

[Dudikoff]

That wouldn't be a fair matchup either. The F-15 would just jam the daylights out of the mig radar. Realistic defense scenarios simulations (by the USAF, and I mean simulated scenarios flown by pilots, not some abstract computer simulation) included up to a 2v8 (4 fighters, 4 strikers) with AIM-7's and AIM-9's in '80's configuration'.

 

It's a fairer scenario. I never said the MiG can go 1 on 1 with the F-15, but considering the Sparrow's engagement range and the need for STT, the MiGs have a chance to come to close range in case they have a numbers advantage and then it's fair game considering the AA-11s and HMS.

[Vekkinho]

Difficult to simulate their inner workings, maybe, because they were analog and thus rather complex to simulate properly. But, I'm talking about approximation of their end behaviour (kinda like black boxing them) which is what we can expect in a computer sim and in that regard it is surely easier to do that for those compared to today's systems which are classified (you have declassified documents, pilots who oeprated them, etc.).

 

 

 

I said "focus on the more "primitive" variants from the 80s". F-16A (no MRMs), F-15C (no AMRAAMs), F-111s, F-4s, F-14s, F/A-18As, A-6s, A-7s, Tornados, MiG-23/25/27/29s, Su-22/24/25/29s, MiG-31s, etc. I don't know where did you get the F-8s and A-4s and whatever the hell the F-7 is (hopefully, not the Cutlass!?). I wouldn't like to have those planes from the 50s.

 

Vought F-7, last of the gunfighters:

Amazing plane BTW...

 

If you're modelling early AIM-7 Sparrows you better move your Missile effectivness slider to 0% for some realism...Sidewinders were deadly only if you fill your HUD with bandit and use it as a unguided rocket.

[volk]

The Lock On website cites the aircraft modelled as the Mig-29C http://lockon.co.uk/modern_air_combat/#562. That can conveniently be interpreted to mean many different models of Mig-29 with and without the Topaz to suit either argument. Remove the R-77 and we have the 9.13, add the Topaz and we get the 9.13s.

We have MiG-29C in game, not 9.13s.

 

 

From this book, p. 146

 

 

That's mean

 

 

;)

[GGTharos]

That's certainly untrue, unless you're talking vietnam-era missiles.

 

If you're modelling early AIM-7 Sparrows you better move your Missile effectivness slider to 0% for some realism...Sidewinders were deadly only if you fill your HUD with bandit and use it as a unguided rocket.

[GGTharos]

The exact same tactics apply against 120's, though 120's are harder to deal with. Same deal for the MiGs, and they still have a chance - just a smaller one.

 

It's a fairer scenario. I never said the MiG can go 1 on 1 with the F-15, but considering the Sparrow's engagement range and the need for STT, the MiGs have a chance to come to close range in case they have a numbers advantage and then it's fair game considering the AA-11s and HMS.

[GGTharos]

And first operational use of the R-77 was ...? :)

 

^^^^

He's got a bit of the point, first operational use and kill with AIM-120 was what...September '91 southern watch?!

[RIPTIDE]

Russia vs America

 

 

/fight.

[GGTharos]

It means nothing to people who can't read Russian. How about you explain? It would add something to the conversation ;)

 

That's mean

[Vekkinho]

And first operational use of the R-77 was ...? :)

 

Flanker 2.0 in 1999.

 

We're still waiting for it to happen IRL but if Chinese got their hands on it (as stated above) there's probably more R-77 out there than we can imagine.

[Dudikoff]

Vought F-7, last of the gunfighters:

Amazing plane BTW...

 

That's Vought F-8 Crusader. I still don't know what this "Vought F-7 Corsair" is.

[mvsgas]

The only F-7 I can think of is the

F-7F Tiger Cat and

F-7U Cutlass

[Alfa]

And first operational use of the R-77 was ...? :)

 

...irrelevant :)

 

My point was that if a "shooting war had started", it would have been during the cold war(i.e. prior to 1991), when neither side had operational ARH missiles available yet.

[159th_Viper]

I still don't know what this "Vought F-7 Corsair" is.

 

 

 

 

Ling-Temco-Vought A-7 Corsair II

[Alfa]

It means nothing to people who can't read Russian. How about you explain? It would add something to the conversation ;)

 

It just says what we already know - i.e. something along the lines of:

 

"The MiG-29S differs from the MiG-29(based on 9.13) mainly by a modifed radar providing support for the R-77"....etc.

[mvsgas]

There is also the Consolidated F-7 liberator

[RvETito]

OT but I gotta say that US Navy has operated/tested the ugliest planes ever.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

It means nothing to people who can't read Russian. How about you explain? It would add something to the conversation ;)

I suggest people who can not understand Cyrillic, take their time and conduct more thorough research before making comments. Specially when it comes to understanding the difference between the Cyrillic "c" and English alphabet "c".

 

He's right and you're right - the deal is that while those 13S' were capable of carrying R-77's, had a shooting war started, a whole bunch of them would have probably gotten shot down before they were ever supplied with any R-77's.

He, he, he ... :no_sad:

 

SAM = Stealth STOP!

[Dudikoff]

Ling-Temco-Vought A-7 Corsair II

 

Yes, of course I know what the A-7 is, but it's not "F-7".

[Spyros]

Although I don't have much to say about versions of the Mig-29, Amraam vs R-77, western ariplane fans vs eastern airplane fans etc, I reply here because I was touched by the beauty of the airplane in 159th_Viper's post! :D

 

The A-7 Corsair is a bomber. Don't let its small size mislead you, it can carry a lot of bombs!

 

It is often confused with the F-8 Crusader though (also by Vought), which is a dogfighter that looks almost identical.

So if you're looking for the "Last Gunfighter", the title is probably referring to the Crusader.

 

Until DCS A-7 is released (pleeeease! :) ), I'll have to compromise with FSX:

 

P.S.

OT but I gotta say that US Navy has operated/tested the ugliest planes ever.

If you're referring to the A-7, then you'd better watch your mouth sir! :D

[RvETito]

A-7 is fine ;) Not as much as the A-6 Intruder but still a good stick. That joke on viper's post makes the day "D

[FanBoy2006.01]

OT but I gotta say that US Navy has operated/tested the ugliest planes ever.

 

Personally, I realy like the looks of the A7 (And A8.). I like the intake that looks like a gaping mouth of a predator.

 

A7 has a great combat history as well.