Gliding?

[Conure]

Hi everyone,

 

I can't justify the costs of a PPL at the moment despite a number of lessons - but nevermind, I can continue in the near future :)

 

Anyway, I was trawling youtube aviation vids and came across gliding which...Looks really fun.

 

Does anybody do it? I've looked up prices and it seems way way cheaper than flying, as cheap as about £25.00 per hour, is that right?! Maybe I'm cynical because if that's true it could be a viable and affordable aviation hobby!

 

Please let me know thoughts :)

[effte]

It's the way I started out. About one quarter to a third of the price for a PPL I think - may be different in the UK of course. Great fun, great way to get started. Glider pilots seem to make better powered pilots as well, which is hardly surprising considering the relative time actually spent manoeuvring an aircraft.

 

Do look into the practical arrangements in your local club(s) beforehand though. It can be a real time thief, taking a full day to get an hour in the air. Bringing aircraft out, waiting for weather, helping others get airborne, flying, cleaning aircraft, helping others, putting everything back in the hangars...

 

Other operations are more commercial in nature. Get there, fly, pay rental, land, go home. More expensive, of course.

 

I dropped my license a few years ago due to time constraints and only fly powered today. Still miss real flying though. Now the local club just bought a self-starter, so I'm badly tempted...

 

Have a few trial flights and see if you get hooked! I think you will... :)

 

Cheers,

Fred

[Conure]

Cheers Effte - looks great, trial lesson booked!

[Mnemonic]

I did my first test flight on a glider less than two weeks ago, and it was amazing experience! Looking forward to fly more, and thinking to start courses somewhere in August.

 

Here are some photos and video from my first flight:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=86700

 

Wish you all the best, hope you will like it :)

[Conure]

I did my first test flight on a glider less than two weeks ago, and it was amazing experience! Looking forward to fly more, and thinking to start courses somewhere in August.

 

Here are some photos and video from my first flight:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=86700

 

Wish you all the best, hope you will like it :)

 

Amazing pics :) Going to try to book some lessons for next weekend!

[SimFreak]

Problem is, it depends on thermals....and UK do not get much as far as I know.

[EtherealN]

Depends on where you are flying. And of course, I'd expect scotland to offer some amazing ridge, hang and wave opportunities.

 

You don't need very impressive thermals to stay up though, not with modern gliders.

[SimFreak]

EtherealN, speaking for experience?

[159th_Viper]

And of course, I'd expect scotland to offer some amazing ridge, hang and wave opportunities.

 

What with all the fast-jets valley-hopping through the Highlands and Grampians, you'd better be sure to pack more than just a piddle-pack.........life might get interesting fast :P

 

Would said afterburner count as a mini-thermal? :D

[jvanes]

I've done gliding for over 4 years at a local glider club ( http://www.gezc.org/ ) here in The Netherlands.

It is one off the least expesive forms of flying, that is in club formation.

It costs me around 900euro a year.

I've droped my license about 10 years ago due to other interests

[aaron886]

Remember that the costs can add up depending on what you're doing. I naturally assume it's winch-flying over there but here in the US you're also subject to tow fees. A day of flight training in gliders can consist of a few tows to altitude (~3000 AGL) and you'll swiftly add up costs. I'm sure a winch ends up being much cheaper.

 

The learning transfer for your further/future work with a private pilot's license will be very positive. I started my flight training with (a mere) 20 hours in sailplanes and it's not only a wonderful foundation but a lesson in stick and rudder skills, aeronautical decision-making, aerodynamics, and more. Definitely talk to whatever instructor you hook up with about getting a glider rating when you get around to your PPL. (Or getting a GPL, and adding the SEL rating.) At the very least, it's worth a flight or two for the experience of real flying!

 

My best advice actually is to fish around for the best clubs and visit them all. Not all gliding clubs are made equal. Have a look at prices, facilities, aircraft, quality of organization, and of course the people and the way you are treated. Head out to an airport on a Saturday morning in the US and it's no surprise if someone offers you a ride along in their glider for the day. Probably the same in the UK.

 

Best of luck!

(A CFI from the US.)

[EtherealN]

EtherealN, speaking for experience?

 

I haven't flown in the UK, no, but my "home field" is an area with relatively poor thermals overall too. The thing always is that if you know the terrain (or consult someone that does know it) you can usually find a couple small localities on the flight that are "odd ones out" and give fantastic thermals even while the rest of the area is pretty crap. (We have some open-pit mining fields close to the aerodrome that are perfect for this, for example. Just unfortunate that they are within the CTR so usually we can't use them and have to go further out to take advantage of some farms.)

 

And of course, you don't need "good" thermals either to stay up. It's preferable, and crap thermals will test your skills, but staying up there is eminently doable with weak thermals too as long as your plane isn't ancient. (Or aerobatic/narrow-wing spec, they tend to have crappy glide ratios.)

 

Viper,

Regarding the fastmovers in scotland, that's a good point, but not necessarily a problem. Just make sure to tell ATC that you're at FL 250 enjoying a particularly nice wave and they'll hopefully take care of things. They might want you to pack a transponder though, which isn't necessarily fun with a glider since you have no on-board power generation. An acquaintance of mine (who holds a couple distance records) bolted in some extra batteries for this purpose - ATC's get a lot more tolerant of gliders if they can see where you are. :D

[EtherealN]

Remember that the costs can add up depending on what you're doing. I naturally assume it's winch-flying over there but here in the US you're also subject to tow fees. A day of flight training in gliders can consist of a few tows to altitude (~3000 AGL) and you'll swiftly add up costs. I'm sure a winch ends up being much cheaper.

 

A winch is considerably cheaper, yeah, but it also doesn't plonk you up to good altitudes. Unless you have one of those fancy new composite cables you should be happy to reach more than 1200 feet AGL, and if you don't have a thermal immediately available all you get to do on that launch is practice launch and recovery... :P

 

Tow-launches are more costly per launch, but it also ensures that the launch "counts". Especially when you are transitioning towards step-2 and doing thermal practice - the tow can then fly you to a thermal, drop you off there, and then you are guaranteed practice on that flight. However, one mistake many clubs seem to make is that they go for a "cheap" tow-plane like a Cub or something like that. While it can do the job, it takes it's time. We use a modified Pawnee and it goes from full stop, to dropping you off at 1000 meters AGL, to full stop on the ground again, in between 3 and 6 minutes depending on the pilot. This routine does however require that the pilot is fine with playing Stuka after the disconnect... :D

 

For me, the fee per launch was ~25€, including the flight itself and a launch to 600 meters. But obviously, prices are likely to vary a lot with country and even within countries. It's fairly standardised here (heritage from the days of military sponsorship of glider aviation) but I've not looked at other countries.

Edited April 15, 2012 by EtherealN

[Conure]

A winch is considerably cheaper, yeah, but it also doesn't plonk you up to good altitudes. Unless you have one of those fancy new composite cables you should be happy to reach more than 1200 feet AGL, and if you don't have a thermal immediately available all you get to do on that launch is practice launch and recovery... :P

 

Tow-launches are more costly per launch, but it also ensures that the launch "counts". Especially when you are transitioning towards step-2 and doing thermal practice - the tow can then fly you to a thermal, drop you off there, and then you are guaranteed practice on that flight. However, one mistake many clubs seem to make is that they go for a "cheap" tow-plane like a Cub or something like that. While it can do the job, it takes it's time. We use a modified Pawnee and it goes from full stop, to dropping you off at 1000 meters AGL, to full stop on the ground again, in between 3 and 6 minutes depending on the pilot. This routine does however require that the pilot is fine with playing Stuka after the disconnect... :D

 

For me, the fee per launch was ~25€, including the flight itself and a launch to 600 meters. But obviously, prices are likely to vary a lot with country and even within countries. It's fairly standardised here (heritage from the days of military sponsorship of glider aviation) but I've not looked at other countries.

 

 

This is something I've struggled to work out! I mean, a winch launch = about £8 here which gives (according to the club) about 6 mins flight time, when you add in hire fees you're looking at close to PPL costs per hour. Maybe I'm getting this wrong though..

[EtherealN]

True, but remember that for the early part of your training, there's basically two steps to each flight:

 

1) Practice launch and landing.

2) Practice some other small step.

 

For example, the first couple flights will be things like "feel what the plane does when you give aileron but no rudder" etcetera. Then land. At the early stages, the short time of each flight is not a problem, since your main task anyhow is to learn how to consistently launch and land safely.

 

Later on, when you start thermals and so on, things get better because then you'll have longer fights per launch. The longest flight I did during training was a 1 hour flight of thermals practice, in a narrow-wing (SZD PW-5), and I "only" ended it after 1 hour because one of the other students needed the aircraft for their own solo thermal practice.

 

So yes, at the early stages, it adds up to being pretty expensive as a function of flight time, but this changes dramatically once you proceed to step-2. (I dont know if you'll have the step-distinctions or if that's something that's local to us though.)

[Conure]

True, but remember that for the early part of your training, there's basically two steps to each flight:

 

1) Practice launch and landing.

2) Practice some other small step.

 

For example, the first couple flights will be things like "feel what the plane does when you give aileron but no rudder" etcetera. Then land. At the early stages, the short time of each flight is not a problem, since your main task anyhow is to learn how to consistently launch and land safely.

 

Later on, when you start thermals and so on, things get better because then you'll have longer fights per launch. The longest flight I did during training was a 1 hour flight of thermals practice, in a narrow-wing (SZD PW-5), and I "only" ended it after 1 hour because one of the other students needed the aircraft for their own solo thermal practice.

 

So yes, at the early stages, it adds up to being pretty expensive as a function of flight time, but this changes dramatically once you proceed to step-2. (I dont know if you'll have the step-distinctions or if that's something that's local to us though.)

 

 

Cheers Ethereal :) do you enjoy it as much as powered flight? Will try to get some pics up when I head out.....

[EtherealN]

Depending on the type of powered flight we're comparing with, it's even better than powered flight. That does go a lot to personal tastes though - I like the challenge of staying up in something that has no engine. That makes each flight not only a nice sight-seeing-trip, but also an achievement in it's own right. :)

 

But of course, if they allowed me to fly jet fighters I suspect I might consider that one more fun. But compared to a fartmobile (that is, a cessna), gliders are definitely better. :)

[leafer]

This isn't what you're asking but have you considered ultralights? I've flown a few of these and they're like the go-cart of aviation-a lot of "inexpensive" fun. If you're concerned about safety then BRS (ballistic recovery systems) makes canister for ultralights. I'm sure you already know that if you're making average or even above average income then all things general aviation will sadly disappoint you.

 

I've been down that road and eventually accepted the fact that GA will never happen for me. Every thing is ridiculously EXPENSIVE! Even a decent headphone. Isn't glider almost as expensive?

Edited April 17, 2012 by leafer

[EtherealN]

Another alternative btw, which financially is very close to gliding, is TMG's. (Touring Motor Glider). Basically a glider with an engine of sufficient strength to launch you and an acceptable fuel tank. One advantage is that they often run on normal automobile gasoline, and the planes themselves are relatively inexpensive - a second-hand SF25 (which is what we use at the club) is ~8000€, and I did some math for it once - it's cheaper than the car for long-distance travel. (They do burn more fuel per kilometer than automobiles do, but since you can fly directly to the target instead of following twisty roads etcetera, they end up needing less travel distance than an automobile.)

 

And of course, if your engine breaks, you can glide as per normal (though not as well as a "normal" glider, unless you bought one of the most expensive ones - Stemme S-10 is my dream plane but sadly way outside my price range, and new enough that the second-hand market for them is very small).

 

Regarding the prices of gliders leafer, they are very cheap by aviation standards. You can get a second-hand glider of competition quality (though not "world class" competitoin quality) at less than you'd spend purchasing a new car. A lot of people finance their glider purchase through simply using a second-hand car instead of a new one. And of course, if you're part of a glider club, all costs get effectively split over everyone that uses it. I pay membership dues of €100 per year, and then pay €20 per hour of flight. I can cut the hourly price by almost half through our club's work assignment system - basically, if I volunteer enough work hours doing maintenance on the aircrafts and facilities of the club, I use the aircraft cheaper. Such arrangements tend to differ between clubs though - a lot depends on the financial health of the club.

 

One thing I've been thinking about though is, as leafer noted, ultralights. More specifically, I'm thinking about getting an X-license for them (Experimental) and designing my own ultralight from scratch. The only real disadvantage of that would be that I wouldn't be able to sell the aircraft internationally - at least not easily.

Edited April 17, 2012 by EtherealN

[SimFreak]

I don't know about englands soaring, but I assume it's like german; ie shabby at best (one month a year). Those guys have to visit Africa or America to do long soars. Anyhow, if there is soaring in england cost will be much MUCH less when you solo unless there is some weird queen tax or such. (LOL)

 

My previous club is probably an exception, but cost was following; monthly club membership (~60$), yearly soaring membership (~200ish IIRC), plus towing cost (1500agl for about 15$). No instructor fees. No time in glider fees. If club is running low on cost, they may request extra money, but it's still less than others.

 

Anyhow, more you fly, less the cost. So if I go for a 5 hour solo ride (assuming I'm only guy signed up for that tail), that's a LOT cheaper than 100$+ a hour in Cessna.

 

Find what kind of soaring there is to be had; aka thermals. No thermals (ridge soaring etc), is a deal breaker IMHO. Find costs to solo. Find total cost and do some math.

[EtherealN]

Well SimFreak, there is one more thing in the equation here as well: the price to PPL.

 

At least here, it is significantly cheaper to first get a Glider Pilot License, and then go from there to a Private Pilot License. The reason for this is that the GPL is (comparatively speaking) extremely cheap. (I spent a total of ~€3500 for mine, though that included 2 weeks of house and board at a training facility.) Once you have the glider license, getting the PPL is a relatively simple thing - you need to learn a few extra things regarding motor flight, but you already have airmanship, you have more meteorology than they have, you already have navigation, you already have radio etcetera etcetera. All you need is to exam on the motor stuff and fly in on the type.

 

If PPL is the goal, how good the gliding is becomes largely irrelevant. It becomes a stepping stone on the way. And besides, the contacts you get through the glider club (if it is one that uses tows) might score you a lot of "for-free" flying time as a tow-pilot, pretty much guaranteeing you to do your required starts and landings each year for free.

 

Your description of the gliding in germany surprises me though. I have a hard time thinking you only have one month where you can stay up each year. I've stayed up as a green quite easily over here even though the weather was, to put it bluntly, shit. :P Some days will be crap, some days will be okey, few days will be awesome. But you don't need "awesome" days to stay up there.

[SimFreak]

I'm using anecdotal evidence. When I soared, club included a lot of Germans and they talked about how much fun (not) they had. Compared to where club is located.

 

Here's crossforum posting about my fun. http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3306962/1.html

[sobek]

But of course, if they allowed me to fly jet fighters I suspect I might consider that one more fun. But compared to a fartmobile (that is, a cessna), gliders are definitely better. :)

 

How about a jet powered glider? :D

[leafer]

EtherealN, here's a link that might interest you.

 

http://www.flyhummel.com/ultra_cruiser.htm

 

It's called an Ultracrusier and it's basically an all metal ultralight that looks and flies like an aircraft-very, very rare for an ultralight. Plus, if you're handy with aluminum then it can be built from scratch for around 5-6000 U.S. dollars. That price includes converted 1/2 VW engine. I have been dreaming about this for several years now. :D

[EtherealN]

Well, if I weren't to design my own plane (kit-building is fine, but the fun thing would be to design it myself too!), I'd probably get the UL version of this one: http://www.flygfabriken.se/

 

Landable in snow when the gears are retracted, as they found out at a test flight where the landing gears didn't come out and they had to land next to the runway, fortunately in winter. :)

 

Still, that UL you linked does look like it should be a passable glider as well. Acceplable wingspan and relatively streamlined.