Air target visibility

[VAOZoky]

I think that artificialy making plane bigger at greater distances isn't some dirty trick, it's actualy "simulating" human vision with focusing at distant objects. Curently we are simulating camera vision. And after all everything in computer is artificialy simulated because last time i checked my computer didnt have landing gear or taxi lights :music_whistling:

[Bucic]

I don't know if this has been brought up here...

keyword: smart scaling, Falcon 4.0, Battle of Britain 2 Wings of Victory

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1400330&highlight=smart+scaling#post1400330

[VAOZoky]

This was posted by Vecko long time ago:

 

 

It shows how poor visibility is even for static ground targets with max zoom

 

PS. Screenshots were taken fron FC2 with 8xAA

PSS. There are two more targets alive :huh:

Edited May 14, 2012 by VAO*Zoky

[159th_Viper]

This was posted by Vecko long time ago:

 

Too long ago and not relevant to the current DCS World engine.

[PeterP]

Had the slight guess that this will happen...

 

Originally Posted by =SE=Zoky

This was posted by Vecko long time ago:

Too long ago and not relevant to the current DCS World engine.

 

But - as we both know; we both participate - there are already some very controversial threads about this matter. And there is no definitive answer how to simulate this on todays common hardware.

 

And spotting a aerial target and keeping it in sight is a very hard task - even in real live.

...so please check first this threads If you think you have something new to contribute.

 

No offence, but this has been really talked to death before and I'm very sure that the Devs are aware of this (hence, I hope they are not blind or have crippled eye-sight :D;) ):

 

Labels Aren't Cheating!

 

Cheating AI.

 

Isnt zooming on the HUD kind of cheating?

 

And there are many,many more...

 

 

And I have enough time spend inside a glider-cockpit, so I know that it is really easy to spot something from 6000 ft altitude if you know where to look. But when you have to search for it you are almost lost.

Edit:

So please have a look at Vipers wonderful test-results before telling that the viability is broken, or even better - test it yourself and post your AA settings and Resolution, and a screenshot.

 

 

OK - ran a quick test with views from the ground and view from an aircraft, results as follows:

 

As seen from ground with default view (no zoom), units visible as far out as 9km:

 

 

 

Same positional viewpoint, but this time from In-cockpit. Note slight visibility degradation at default view:

 

 

 

And this time same positional viewpoint, but aided by the default zoom available in-cockpit:

 

 

 

The above screenshots taken at a resolution of 1920x1200.

 

Now i would submit that the Law of Averages dictate that the average gaming monitor in this day and age is about at a resolution of 1920x1200 or thereabouts. If one takes that as an average, with the average viewing distances attained in-SIM as above, as well as having further regard to the use of zoom to alleviate the inevitable disadvantage we as players have in sitting before a monitor vs being outside, the question then is:

 

Are the above viewing distances reasonable?

 

Having regard to the utilization of zoom, then yes, most definitely. Can even be spotted to 15km.

 

Having regard to default view in-cockpit, can an argument be made for increased visibility in the 5-9km range? If so, how and why?

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2012 by PeterP

[Wolf Rider]

A comparison of distances have a sense with connection to field of view.

You can see targets in the narrow FOV a much farther than wide FOV.

 

 

Yes, the Fov selected is the problem, but in a way it is also an inavoidable one.

With a small FoV, a small section of the 3D image of image is displayed on the monitor and by comparison, with a large Fov, a larger section of that same 3D world is displayed on the same monitor. The problem is the monitor is the same size, so in effect (and without actually doing so), the small section would be expanded and the large section condensed.

This is where the distortion comes in.

If the sim was set for the small FoV, it would have a tunnel vision effect and the larger FoV would have, as we see, a distortion would occur, regarding distance. This would larger FoV have to be "fisheyed" to display the 3D world in a relative visual accuracy (this though could well affect distance within the sim)

Also to take into account is the usual human Field of Vision... that being about 60 degrees, which as it happens is about the amount of space a monitor will occupy in sight that a user will at from to maintain a comfortable view. If the distance is too close, the user may find themselves slightly dizzy and too far, may cause headaches from squinting.

 

 

Correct... it isn't an easy one to solve and hardware is very much the limitation.

 

 

I do, however, very much like the idea of reflected sunlight (glints and flashes) but not to the point where it becomes a flashing neon arrow. It should be kept to realistic representation.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Wolf Rider

[PeterP]

Sorry to go off topic... but I hope you understand and will follow my thoughts.

(If not - Mods: please delete my first part of my posting immediately)

 

I'm happy that we are developed from predators - just think about the possibility that we would have the eyes at the side of our head - e.g. like a horse . -or even better - more than two..... :music_whistling:

- ...can you imagine how we would place the monitor(s) - or discuss about things like this: FOV/Screen-size.... I'm in horror to think about this in detail... :)

 

@Wolf Rider

 

The best answer and the one that is physically correct to this question would be:

place the monitor about one arm-length to your eyes and adjust the in-game FOV exactly to the degree the monitors takes place in you real vision. And never touch it again!!! ;)

 

...

 

And all problems about the visibility distance would be gone.... because right now all off us have more or less the same pixel density when using normal computer-monitors. (don't start talking a bout the new ipad, please)

(and as a ++ everyone would have high FPS, because the system has less to draw)

 

but - now the people with bigger monitors would have a grater in-game FOV...

 

 

- right: This is not easy to solve. always compromises.

 

EDIT

BTW: Similar is done in original IL2 - it is not allowed to have a grater FOV than 90° - so everyone has the same picture.

>>> the only known workaround: http://il2fovchanger.byethost7.com/

Edited May 14, 2012 by PeterP

[Wolf Rider]

@Wolf Rider

 

The best answer and the one that is physically correct to this question would be:

place the monitor about one arm-length to your eyes and adjust the in-game FOV exactly to the degree the monitors takes place in you real vision. And never touch it again!!! ;)

 

...

 

And all problems about the visibility distance would be gone.... because right now all off us have more or less the same pixel density when using normal computer-monitors. (don't start talking a bout the new ipad, please)

(and as a ++ everyone would have high FPS, because the system has less to draw)

 

but - now the people with bigger monitors would have a grater in-game FOV...

 

 

- right: This is not easy to solve. always compromises.

 

 

About 60 degrees?

 

 

---

 

A bigger monitor wouldn't be a bigger FoV, it would have a greater definition. (more pixels to image on)

Going to a bigger screen to run a bigger FoV would bring the user back to the same problem seen when running a smaller monitor.

 

To pick out of the air an FoV value - (hmm, lets see... lets pick 45 degrees) that 45 degree FoV would still be 45 degrees on a 12", a 19", a 24" or a 32 "

[Wolf Rider]

No offense taken it is an interesting topic, but then that goes back to if running a really really big monitor, of cutting into the user's peripheral vision. (peripheral vision, surprisingly, does help with keeping balance).

Chances are quite good the user would find themselves getting dizzy if they chose to keep at such a close distance, more likely they would find themselves moving away to a distance which would accommodate what they would find comfortable and a clearer (less pixellated) cohesive image.

 

 

Interesting about the vision of creatures with their eyes on the side of their head. I've actually done that (and don't ask me what I had been smoking at the time :) ). They'd see the world the same as we would, with obvious differences and understandings though... such as colour and perceiving what texture is, only they would see 330 ~ 360 degrees with the same manner as we only see 180 ish.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Wolf Rider

[AlaskanGrizzly]

The simplest solution I can think of is to make the options surrounding labels more configurable in the following ways:

 

Icon shape, size, transparency, which can vary by the kind of contact

Kinds of contacts that will have or not have an icon (e.g. air only or no infantry)

Information displayed with icon (including color, shape, size of icon as information!)

Ranges and even elevation at which icon is displayed and target information (if any)

Weather degradation of contacts

 

This would allow someone to create icons which are essentially just semi-transparent dots or marks in the sky to represent very distant aircraft. As you get closer the icon might change to represent the kind of aircraft it is, and then as you get very close actually disappear entirely. It could be limited to fixed-wing air contacts above 1500 feet AGL, while other people might prefer to have range information at closer distances (to replace the loss of depth perception) as well as dark dots over ground vehicles that are within 2 nm.

 

 

I modified my 'Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Config\View\labels.lua' to limit labels more while I learn to spot things better without them.

 

I removed labels for ground units, naval units and weapons and I modified the air labels to be only a small red dot if the aircraft is within 15 km and the dot disappears completely within 5 km.

 

That seems to give me good distance situational awareness while still forcing me to be actively looking and makes dogfights more real when things get up close and personal.

 

I've attached my modified labels.lua file and it is very easy to tweak to your own personal preference.

Labels.lua

[Wolf Rider]

 

No - a bigger monitor = a bigger FOV

 

 

 

perhaps a clarification may be needed?

 

A bigger screen has the capacity to occupy a larger portion of the user's FoV... yes (if they sit at the same distance away as they would a smaller monitor)

but the same size ingame FoV will be the same, regardless of monitor size and resolution

[PeterP]

Interesting about the vision of creatures with their eyes on the side of their head. I've actually done that (and don't ask me what I had been smoking at the time :) ). They'd see the world the same as we would, with obvious differences and understandings though... such as colour and perceiving what texture is, only they would see 330 ~ 360 degrees with the same manner as we only see 180 ish.

 

I have done similar thing in a museum by using mirrors at each eye to simulate this.

 

Yes- the first impression is that they see the same at a greater field of view....

But you underestimate the neurologies behind this:

This creatures develop the property to focus two points at the same time at opposite sides of their vision.

...

BTW: Something that Apache-pilots also develop when using their artificial Visuals that mirror the sight of their gun-camera into their dominant eye. - They start really to look like a chameleon. - no joke- they really are able to move both eyes independently and focus at the same time two different things. - its just a matter of training and necessary for your visual cortex.(very simplified: like learning the TrackIR - it takes time but is possible)

--but this really goes off-topic now to discus it further in this thread.

Edited May 14, 2012 by PeterP

[Wolf Rider]

yes, that's what I meant by obvious differences and understandings. Some can move their eyes around, while others move their point of attention around, while predators (eagles for instance) move their eyes into the total bi-ocular and have just a natural zoom at the point of attention, wthout distorting any of their total view. They can't distinguish (umderstand the difference between) between fur texture and bush texture though.

 

yep, it is OT, but utterly fascinating nonetheless! :)

Edited May 14, 2012 by Wolf Rider

[Wolf Rider]

what is relevant, and very relevant...

 

 

No offense taken it is an interesting topic, but then that goes back to if running a really really big monitor, of cutting into the user's peripheral vision. (peripheral vision, surprisingly, does help with keeping balance).

Chances are quite good the user would find themselves getting dizzy if they chose to keep at such a close distance, more likely they would find themselves moving away to a distance which would accommodate what they would find comfortable and a clearer (less pixellated) cohesive image.

 

 

I see now that you're trying to say, that running a large monitor will allow a large ingame FoV to be selected? that though would only distort the sighting of distant targets wouldn't it? the same as doing the same on a smaller monitor would?

[Wolf Rider]

hey whoa, calm down... I'm most definitely not having a go at you mate

[PeterP]

hey whoa, calm down... I'm most definitely not having a go at you mate

I never "calmed up"....LoL

I had a lot of fun and also a good/interesting conversation - when placing smilies is not enough during answering a question of yours ... than I just don't know what to do!

:):)

Edited May 14, 2012 by PeterP

[PeterP]

to bring this back on topic (and I apologize -I'm responsible on a great part for the cluttering.)

That is defiantly the last most reasonable post in this thread that answers also the question of the OP:

 

OK - ran a quick test with views from the ground and view from an aircraft, results as follows:

 

As seen from ground with default view (no zoom), units visible as far out as 9km:

 

 

 

Same positional viewpoint, but this time from In-cockpit. Note slight visibility degradation at default view:

 

 

 

And this time same positional viewpoint, but aided by the default zoom available in-cockpit:

 

 

 

The above screenshots taken at a resolution of 1920x1200.

 

Now i would submit that the Law of Averages dictate that the average gaming monitor in this day and age is about at a resolution of 1920x1200 or thereabouts. If one takes that as an average, with the average viewing distances attained in-SIM as above, as well as having further regard to the use of zoom to alleviate the inevitable disadvantage we as players have in sitting before a monitor vs being outside, the question then is:

 

Are the above viewing distances reasonable?

 

Having regard to the utilization of zoom, then yes, most definitely. Can even be spotted to 15km.

 

Having regard to default view in-cockpit, can an argument be made for increased visibility in the 5-9km range? If so, how and why?

[Wolf Rider]

I had a lot of fun and also a good/interesting conversation - when placing smilies is not enough during answering a question of yours ... than I just don't know what to do!

:):)

 

 

Oh okay, I get it now... must have been something in the language ;) :book: though I'm still scratching my head :huh:

 

you said

 

The best answer and the one that is physically correct to this question would be:

place the monitor about one arm-length to your eyes and adjust the in-game FOV exactly to the degree the monitors takes place in you real vision. And never touch it again!!!

 

I said

No offense taken it is an interesting topic, but then that goes back to if running a really really big monitor, of cutting into the user's peripheral vision. (peripheral vision, surprisingly, does help with keeping balance).

Chances are quite good the user would find themselves getting dizzy if they chose to keep at such a close distance, more likely they would find themselves moving away to a distance which would accommodate what they would find comfortable and a clearer (less pixellated) cohesive image.

 

so there was *no need to be dragged around in circles :music_whistling: so... what could be gained on the swing would have a loss on the roundabout (to quote a localised saying ;);) ) so to speak :thumbup:

 

 

:D

 

 

*edit

Edited May 14, 2012 by Wolf Rider

[Wolf Rider]

well, if it wants to be gone into (the OP) fully, it has to be looked at from all angles - positives and negatives.

[Masterplus]

:music_whistling:...I have a friend who has a beautiful shop glasses...

I can already see the tanker 10 miles (except for haze)

Edited May 27, 2012 by Masterplus