A-10 in the gulf war compared to DCS and user scenarios

[sgibson]

Hi,

 

I'm just reading the book "Warthog - Flying the A-10 in the gulf war" (by William L. Smallwood) primarily because I want to learn more about realistic scenarios and problems.

 

I haven't finished the book yet, but I already noticed following severe discrepancies between DCS and user created mission scenarios - personally I always had the feeling that there are way too many SAMs:

 

It seems that in the gulf war the A-10 had very little trouble with radar guided air-defenses. Before A-10 got into the target area the radar-guided sites were wiped out and flight packages were on station in case a radar lights up.

 

The major issue they had was mainly from AAA which could be easily avoided by staying over a certain height.

 

The other major threat came from IR guided weapons - especially SA-16 seemed to be a feared weapon. HOWEVER, they flew tons of missions during night and according to the book the A-10 is so silent that none of the ground forces could hear them if they were above 5000ft.

 

Therefore, they could easily make their rounds around the target zone to identify and pick-up targets without beeing targeted or noticed.

 

I also noticed an interesting tactic which I have zero ability to reproduce in A-10:

 

They flew high-altitude tactics which means they tried to keep over 8000ft. So when they used the Gatling they dove 40 to 60 degrees and took out tanks, APCs from 8000ft!!! Is anybody able to take out tanks from 8000ft in DCs???

 

Also they droppped like 6 Mk-82s from that height taking out a lot of targets such as aritellery sites. This was mainly due to the blast and secondary explosions from the ammunition on the ground as those hits weren't really precise. This is almost impossible in DCS. If I drop an Mk-82 next to an artillary they almost never get really damaged.

[ralfidude]

Well I have had success in killing things with the Mk-82s in CCRP mode at those heighs as long as you are not increasing or decreasing speed and altitude, and if you pickle off in ripple 2 quantities.

 

It's CCIP that pisses me off, they never ever hit on the pipper, always behind it....

 

 

As far as guns... it does bother me that you need to get that close to kill a tank, but that's the way it is I guess. I know the game doesnt make the bullets hit anythign above 2.0nm, Iv tried against a line of infantry, and it seems the bullets dissapear above that range.

[theghost]

HI,

I have not read the book But I can tell you that the only threat to the A10 aircraft in the Gulf War was, the AAA,All SAM batteries were destroyed before the arrival of the A10.

 

Military doctrine of the A10 is,"Arrival to the battlefield when there are no threats of surface air batteries"

[Kaiza]

Remember A10s in the Gulf was 22 years ago in A-10As, in a scenario much different to that simulated in DCS.

[DUSTY]

I think the major thing with reality versus DCS is the definition of getting a 'kill' is different in terms of engaging ground targets.

 

From some reading I did about Desert Storm, engaging a tank from medium/high altitude with the GAU-8 IRL would require less actual hits on the target than in DCS to render it 'destroyed'. There were instances where the Iraqi's would dismount from their vehicles when it become apparent they were being engaged by US aircraft.

 

On a completely different note, I remember reading that A-10As flew 8 ship formations for many sorties during Desert Storm. Certainly a rarety in this day and age!

[sgibson]

@ConfirmingKills: It was interesting to read that the pilots had a hard time confirming kills. Tanks often didn't explode or Smoked using the GAU so they had to falg them as a potential kill.

 

@Kaiza

What is exactly simulated in DCS? As far my understanding goes the A-10 is for CAS missions. To be able to do that other flights engaged and eliminated air-defenses. So in A-10 deployment scenarios you end up having AAA and IR SAMs (e.g. manpads) left.

 

However, DCS missions and user missions (especially a lot of the multiplayer) missions are covered with SAM. The A-10 is not a SAM hunter.

[theghost]

It is very important that all of you to know:

today in 2012 Air Ground combat completely changed,Fighter jets clean the area from threats from

Very large distances, the weapons are more sophisticated today and can be launched from further away.

True

Single Soldier can still carry on his shoulder a missile,But that does not change the fact that the battlefield completely different today from 20 years ago.

[RoaringBones]

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Stories1/001-100/0016_A-10-battle-damage/story0016.htm

Check this story out.

[Daze]

due to screen resolution etc I'd say it would be next to impossible to spot and gun targets from 8000ft, especially at night. As soon as you went into your dive to start the gun run you would lose track of where the target is unless you had labels on.

[MagnumHB]

The content of missions in DCS is a matter of whatever the mission builder decides to put in. Many missions have heavy SAM presence simply as a way to increase the difficulty level.

[theghost]

@ConfirmingKills: It was interesting to read that the pilots had a hard time confirming kills. Tanks often didn't explode or Smoked using the GAU so they had to falg them as a potential kill.

 

@Kaiza

What is exactly simulated in DCS? As far my understanding goes the A-10 is for CAS missions. To be able to do that other flights engaged and eliminated air-defenses. So in A-10 deployment scenarios you end up having AAA and IR SAMs (e.g. manpads) left.

 

However, DCS missions and user missions (especially a lot of the multiplayer) missions are covered with SAM. The A-10 is not a SAM hunter.

 

You're absolutely right

I never understood :bash:why the creators of the missions put many batteries of SAM missiles that the A10 should face them in.

May be because they are not real pilots:smilewink:

[Wichid]

@ConfirmingKills: It was interesting to read that the pilots had a hard time confirming kills. Tanks often didn't explode or Smoked using the GAU so they had to falg them as a potential kill.

 

@Kaiza

What is exactly simulated in DCS? As far my understanding goes the A-10 is for CAS missions. To be able to do that other flights engaged and eliminated air-defenses. So in A-10 deployment scenarios you end up having AAA and IR SAMs (e.g. manpads) left.

 

However, DCS missions and user missions (especially a lot of the multiplayer) missions are covered with SAM. The A-10 is not a SAM hunter.

 

Yep many missions have you calling fighter cover and sead.

 

I've seen some videos of a-10s engaging with guns and not going below 7000 ft. It's not as effective though I guess. They also killed a British soldier by accident.

 

Most mp missions are made to be action packed and full of challenges. Killing targets is otherwise quite straight forward.

[Daze]

You're absolutely right

I never understood :bash:why the creators of the missions put many batteries of SAM missiles that the A10 should face them in.

May be because they are not real pilots:smilewink:

 

They only do it to increase the difficulty and they have to make do with what they've got. The role of the A-10 will change a lot when DCS: Fast Jet comes out, as you will be able to have a dedicated SEAD plane to destroy air defences then send the A-10s to do what they're supposed to do, meaning missions will be a lot more fun and more realistic

[theghost]

They only do it to increase the difficulty and they have to make do with what they've got. The role of the A-10 will change a lot when DCS: Fast Jet comes out, as you will be able to have a dedicated SEAD plane to destroy air defences then send the A-10s to do what they're supposed to do, meaning missions will be a lot more fun and more realistic

:thumbup:

I think you can create complex and challenging missions Even without rain of Sam missiles.

[JB3DG]

Also another option is to pull in lots of F-16s or Tornados and maybe Mudhens as AI and have them wipe the floor with the airdefenses using HARMs/ALARMs/or the Mudhens ability to knock out the suckers from really high up with LGBs/JDAMs or if the target is really high value and well defended, AGM-130s.

[Eddie]

SAMs/AAA are things that the A-10 is very much expected to deal with IRL, it just depends on the type. While it's very true that the A-10 would not be expected to deal with MERAD/LORAD systems such as SA-11/SA-10 etc, that doesn't mean there won't be any in the area of operations either. There is a reason that during the cold war A-10A pilots trained to fly entire missions spending no more than 30 seconds or so above 200 feet.

 

While SEAD flights would always be tasked to reduce or even eliminate enemy MERAD & LORAD, don't make the mistake of thinking that the A-10 (or any other aircraft for that matter) would sit at home on the ground waiting for all threats to be eliminated. While you certainly would not be tasked to take out an active SA-10 site (for example), you may well be tasked to attack an armoured battalion operating within the area protected by said SA-10. In such a situation it would be up to you as a pilot to plan your mission accordingly. There is no reason such a mission could not be accomplished by launching Mavericks from low level, therefore using terrain masking etc to negate the LORAD threat.

 

When it come toS HORAD & AAA systems, it is well within the capabilities of the A-10 to engage and destroy them, especially the C model. And don't make the mistake of thinking that SEAD flights would always take them out for you, in fact it's quite unlikely that SEAD aircraft would be tasked with dealing with SHORAD systems like the SA-19/SA-13/SA-9 etc, they have bigger fish to fry.

 

During the 1991 Gulf war A-10As were tasked with what was essentially SEAD missions against SHORAD/AAA systems, there is no reason to believe the A-10C wouldn't be given the same tasking should another high intensity conflict occur.

 

As for the OPs question regarding engaging tanks from medium level, it is very much possible in the sim, just don't expect a 100 round burst to do the job as it would for a closer range. It will often require several attacks to destroy a T-80 using such an attack method.

 

As someone pointed out above, vehicle damage in the sim is more black and white than in reality. Whereas in real life a 100 burst, even from high level, is likely to at least disable a tank or other armoured vehicle in the sim (while lower damage levels do effect units combat abilities) you always have to deplete a vehicles "health" in order to "kill" it. But it is worth remembering that in the real world a flight of A-10s (or any other aircraft) may kill only a small number of vehicles per mission (less than 10) whereas many missions in the sim require you to take on significantly larger enemy force concentrations with fewer aircraft than would be used in reality.

[theghost]

I personally prefer when i working on the mission editor to use all kinds of weapons related to AAA's much more challenging and realistic in cas,In general Most of my missions are up to 6000 No more,

Except for high-altitude bombing missions.

[RoaringBones]

I personally prefer when i working on the mission editor to use all kinds of weapons related to AAA's much more challenging and realistic in cas,In general Most of my missions are up to 6000 No more,

Except for high-altitude bombing missions.

what alt do you usually release your bombs?

[theghost]

SAMs/AAA are things that the A-10 is very much expected to deal with IRL, it just depends on the type. While it's very true that the A-10 would not be expected to deal with MERAD/LORAD systems such as SA-11/SA-10 etc, that doesn't mean there won't be any in the area of operations either. There is a reason that during the cold war A-10A pilots trained to fly entire missions spending no more than 30 seconds or so above 200 feet.

 

While SEAD flights would always be tasked to reduce or even eliminate enemy MERAD & LORAD, don't make the mistake of thinking that the A-10 (or any other aircraft for that matter) would sit at home on the ground waiting for all threats to be eliminated. While you certainly would not be tasked to take out an active SA-10 site (for example), you may well be tasked to attack an armoured battalion operating within the area protected by said SA-10. In such a situation it would be up to you as a pilot to plan your mission accordingly. There is no reason such a mission could not be accomplished by launching Mavericks from low level, therefore using terrain masking etc to negate the LORAD threat.

 

When it come toS HORAD & AAA systems, it is well within the capabilities of the A-10 to engage and destroy them, especially the C model. And don't make the mistake of thinking that SEAD flights would always take them out for you, in fact it's quite unlikely that SEAD aircraft would be tasked with dealing with SHORAD systems like the SA-19/SA-13/SA-9 etc, they have bigger fish to fry.

 

During the 1991 Gulf war A-10As were tasked with what was essentially SEAD missions against SHORAD/AAA systems, there is no reason to believe the A-10C wouldn't be given the same tasking should another high intensity conflict occur.

 

As for the OPs question regarding engaging tanks from medium level, it is very much possible in the sim, just don't expect a 100 round burst to do the job as it would for a closer range. It will often require several attacks to destroy a T-80 using such an attack method.

 

As someone pointed out above, vehicle damage in the sim is more black and white than in reality. Whereas in real life a 100 burst, even from high level, is likely to at least disable a tank or other armoured vehicle in the sim (while lower damage levels do effect units combat abilities) you always have to deplete a vehicles "health" in order to "kill" it. But it is worth remembering that in the real world a flight of A-10s (or any other aircraft) may kill only a small number of vehicles per mission (less than 10) whereas many missions in the sim require you to take on significantly larger enemy force concentrations with fewer aircraft than would be used in reality.

I agree with you, :thumbup:

Still,

There is no logical to Build mission with tons of SAM , I know this is a battle simulator which simulates various battle situationsis You can do it without giving up the challenge and difficulty of the mission.

[theghost]

what alt do you usually release your bombs?

hi,

jdam,GBU

10,000-12,000

CBU 105-97

till 10,000 No more

CBU 98-103

till 4000 No more

mk 82 and air Not relevant

I hit and not miss, its a very rare I miss targets.

Maverick missiles at all range of heights

[Highwayman-Ed]

Most of the missions I've designed in the past and with FC and both DCS BS and A-10 have SHORAD, mostly in the form of SA-13 and ZSU 23-4, present as has been pointed out in this thread it is A: realistic to expect to come up against them as they are small fish and passive systems until you're in close and they engage, and B: it makes things more interesting and challenging!

 

I have also placed units like the SA-10 and SA-11 in areas to prevent players from wandering off, but in a lot of circumstances, even when I write it up in the briefing "do not go here" people see the spike in the TEWS and decide that the target needs to be engaged regardless :(

 

Not all mission designers are Dumb, or Evil for that matter, we're just trying to create some immersion!

[Pikey]

Someone is comparing tactical doctrine in a well defined historical scenario to a sandbox simulation here. Put the scenario in the sandbox then compare, otherwise take it for what it is.

 

Regardless of the A10's design purpose and what conflicts it has served in, ED presents a faithful sandbox simulator so you can test it in a multitude of roles...and might I add, the more wildly imaginative they are and the less they model historical conflicts or intended design purpose then the more enjoyment you can get out of it.

 

Air superiority is a fantastic situation, but it's a luxury often not designed for by the military.

 

Now, I'm off to dogfight those pesky P51's in my A10...

[theghost]

Someone is comparing tactical doctrine in a well defined historical scenario to a sandbox simulation here. Put the scenario in the sandbox then compare, otherwise take it for what it is.

 

Regardless of the A10's design purpose and what conflicts it has served in, ED presents a faithful sandbox simulator so you can test it in a multitude of roles...and might I add, the more wildly imaginative they are and the less they model historical conflicts or intended design purpose then the more enjoyment you can get out of it.

 

Air superiority is a fantastic situation, but it's a luxury often not designed for by the military.

 

Now, I'm off to dogfight those pesky P51's in my A10...

 

 

It's just an open discussion, I think that everybody here is for fun,Even I treats everything very seriously understand this is a Simulator.

[Joyride]

A-10s Over Kosovo is also a great book, and really highlights the MANPAD threat that is always present. Evading MANPADs was commonplace...which is why I think heavy use of them in DCS mission is much more warranted than medium range RADAR SAMs. I also like seeing SA-9s and SA-13s in missions...makes multiplayer more fun as you really need to use shooter/spotter techniques effectively. It wouldn't be expected that SEAD would clear all those little pesky short range IR SAMs out.

[Sierra99]

They only do it to increase the difficulty and they have to make do with what they've got. The role of the A-10 will change a lot when DCS: Fast Jet comes out, as you will be able to have a dedicated SEAD plane to destroy air defences then send the A-10s to do what they're supposed to do, meaning missions will be a lot more fun and more realistic

 

This is something that's bothered me about many of the missions I've seen on the DCS site.... A majority of the are best described as Strike missions... Not CAS. Can an A-10 perform a strike mission, sure. On the other hand, I think some of the missions would have been better suited for F-16CGs or Mudhens...but we can't fly those yet can we. ;)

 

That being said, a few of them are EXCELLENT missions that use the warthog in its element. SAR support and Troops in contact.