What is with the handling?

[Perriwen]

I've been playing this sim for awhile now, and there are things still baffling me. For one, any kind of turn that is above 4-gs, the plane seems to shudder, wobble, alarms sound, and it starts to drop. Then, the thing seems to have major trouble accelerating beyond 250 knots. Now, I've been to air shows and seen the A-10 demonstrated, seen docs on the A-10...and this thing seems to have half the performance of the real one. For one, the very beginning of the USAF A-10 demo is the aircraft going into an abrupt, vertical climb at the end of the runway. Times I tried that, the thing practically falls out of the sky.

[Jona33]

I've been playing this sim for awhile now, and there are things still baffling me. For one, any kind of turn that is above 4-gs, the plane seems to shudder, wobble, alarms sound, and it starts to drop. Then, the thing seems to have major trouble accelerating beyond 250 knots. Now, I've been to air shows and seen the A-10 demonstrated, seen docs on the A-10...and this thing seems to have half the performance of the real one. For one, the very beginning of the USAF A-10 demo is the aircraft going into an abrupt, vertical climb at the end of the runway. Times I tried that, the thing practically falls out of the sky.

 

Payload and fuel?

 

Airshow birds are very lightly loaded.

[Perriwen]

Payload and fuel?

 

Airshow birds are very lightly loaded.

 

I've tried it empty with a fuel load ranging from 30 to 50%. Same result.

[Jona33]

I've tried it empty with a fuel load ranging from 30 to 50%. Same result.

 

Can you show me this "vertical climb" video. As for a 4g turn, you have to be fast and very careful when pulling back on the stick. The chopped tone is when you're pulling too hard.As for getting beyond 250 knots I generally get it to around 300 easily enough.

[Corrigan]

Vertical climb? I can't imagine that...

[Dejjvid]

It's been tested, you will achieve maximum roll rate, climb performance etc. etc. as per the -1 if you have a light enough aircraft.

 

I've also seen the A-10C live, and i can perform that show with 1000lbs of fuel too. You can't do it with full tanks. Reaching 300 knots is a piece of cake to reach if you are kinda empty. you won't get up to 300 knots with maximum takeoff weight in level flight and some altitude.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Dejjvid

[Snoopy]

For one, the very beginning of the USAF A-10 demo is the aircraft going into an abrupt, vertical climb at the end of the runway. Times I tried that, the thing practically falls out of the sky.

 

Don't take what a demo A-10 can do and compare it to one that's combat ready. There are many items we remove from demo birds, pylons, equipment, etc. as well as she has the minimum fuel that safety will allow.

Also, she doesn't go vertical, very high AOA but not vertical :D

[Dejjvid]

That part you call 'vertical climb' is not from level flight :)

 

Check @ 2.00

 

 

And i saw that actual show, so i saw him dive in getting speed, the climb was performed at my position.

[Perriwen]

That part you call 'vertical climb' is not from level flight :)

 

Check @ 2.00

 

 

And i saw that actual show, so i saw him dive in getting speed, the climb was performed at my position.

 

 

Check around 1:13. :3 I've never been able to pull that off nearly as smoothly as he does.

[cichlidfan]

Check around 1:13. :3 I've never been able to pull that off nearly as smoothly as he does.

 

Just shooting in the dark here...

 

I would guess that Capt. Joe "Rifle" Shetterly has a few more hours in the A-10 than you, not to mention the fact that he does this for a living. :P

[BlueRidgeDx]

The A-10 demo does, in fact, include a 540° roll while climbing vertically, so there's no need to put the word vertical in quotes.

 

The problem is that in order to fly that maneuver, it requires a very steep descent to achieve the entry airspeed of 400+ knots. And, as Paul said, the demo jet has a negative drag index because the hardpoints and TISL has been removed, and the chaff/flare buckets have blanking plates installed. The jet only carries 3,000 (3,500?) pounds of fuel, giving it an extrememly light gross weight of 35,000 pounds.

 

@Perriwen: So, yes, a stripped down demo jet at 400+ knots can (barely) squeek out a vertical rolling maneuver. Your combat configured hog cannot.

 

EDIT: in your second video, what you see at 1:13 is a standard pull-up to a closed traffic pattern, and is only a 30° pull followed by a 60° roll. Definitely not vertical.

Edited June 14, 2012 by BlueRidgeDx

[coconutjo]

Great find on the vid! Love the roll at 3:00, usually proceeds another low-pass death in my virtual hands....:)

Edited June 14, 2012 by coconutjo

[Dejjvid]

IMHO, a vertical CLIMB is when the aircraft has enough power to pull/push itself in the vertical, without the need to first do a steep dive. There are a few planes that can do a low transition takeoff and go VERTICAL 90 degrees straight up. That's how I define a vertical climb. But I might be wrong.

[James]

Just a question for my own interest really but would ED every consider making or updating DCS-A10 to include a demo jet? so something that would be capable of performing these sorts of maneuvers

[BlueRidgeDx]

@dejjvid: you're adding qualifiers that change the definition. A vertical climb is, quite literally, an aircraft climbing vertically; nothing more or less. The definition does not imply the ability to maintain that climb for any length of time. The A-10 demo profile calls for a pull to vertical, followed by a 540 degree roll, followed by another pull to inverted.

 

@James: you can make a reasonable approximation of a demo configured jet by making sure you unload all weapons, ammunition, and chaff/flares, and reduce fuel load to 3,000 pounds. The only difference is you cant remove the TISL pod or a few hardpoints.

 

Hopefully, one day we'll have more control over hardpoints, suspension equipment, and weapon configuration. It's on the wishlist.

[Nu-NRG]

The A-10 demo does, in fact, include a 540° roll while climbing vertically, so there's no need to put the word vertical in quotes.

 

The problem is that in order to fly that maneuver, it requires a very steep descent to achieve the entry airspeed of 400+ knots. And, as Paul said, the demo jet has a negative drag index because the hardpoints and TISL has been removed, and the chaff/flare buckets have blanking plates installed. The jet only carries 3,000 (3,500?) pounds of fuel, giving it an extrememly light gross weight of 35,000 pounds.

 

@Perriwen: So, yes, a stripped down demo jet at 400+ knots can (barely) squeek out a vertical rolling maneuver. Your combat configured hog cannot.

 

EDIT: in your second video, what you see at 1:13 is a standard pull-up to a closed traffic pattern, and is only a 30° pull followed by a 60° roll. Definitely not vertical.

And even then it seemed jittery a tad to right as per sim when you try to nudge her to fast :D

[Nu-NRG]

And one thing is for sure. She is not a fast mover or jet fighter! Not her job.

 

Her job is to deliver 30mm rounds at 4200 rpm :P

[Fox One]

For one, the very beginning of the USAF A-10 demo is the aircraft going into an abrupt, vertical climb at the end of the runway. Times I tried that, the thing practically falls out of the sky.

 

 

 

Check around 1:13. :3 I've never been able to pull that off nearly as smoothly as he does.

 

In that video from the moment he starts his takeoff run until he makes that abrupt pull there are precisely 42 seconds.

 

I have done a test flight in DCS. Fuel weight 3,000lbs, gun ammo removed. Summer, standard conditions.

 

Takeoff, gear, flaps, I keep the plane low just like in the video. After 42 seconds from starting the takeoff my speed was 278. With that kind of speed you can do a lot of things, especially if the plane is light in weight. I pulled the stick, the G initially spiked to about 5, then I eased the pull a bit. Velocity vector on 80deg, I did an 80 deg climb for no less than 3 full seconds, then I pulled gently, when I came up above in inverted position my altitude was 3,900 and the speed about 95 (sufficient for this type of aircraft if you do the pull smoothly while over the top).

 

I kept the plane in horizontal inverted flight for a few seconds, then another pull, so in the end I completed a square loop, F-18 style :)

 

Honestly, I don't understand why you say the performance is well below that of the real aircraft. When the weight is low, to me it seems that is pretty much as nimble as what I can see in those videos. Personally, I can't see anything in the videos I feel I can't do in a lightly loaded plane in DCS.

[MTFDarkEagle]

Exactly. If you think you can pull such manouvres with any payload and more than minimum fuel onboard you are very mistaken.

[Fox One]

About roll rate, I just did my own research.

 

 

he does some fast rolls. I downloaded the video to be able to do some frame-by-frame analyses, and concluded that when the roll rate was fully developed it was about 191 deg/sec. In DCS I was certainly able to achieve something very close to that when my speed was close to 400, and it is visible in the video his speed was high too.

 

The A-10 flight manual says the roll rate is 130 deg/s at a speed of 300 and 200 deg/s at the same speed, with 40% speed brakes. On my test flight I tested those and I achieved values differing from that with less than 10 deg/s.

 

Anyone implying that ED hasn't done its homework regarding A-10C performance in DCS definitely has no idea how incredibly silly that is. And actually kind of an insult to Yo-Yo and all the others ED scientists.

[Tailgate]

No problem here, except my 4 point rolls. :D

Airshow1.trk

[aaron886]

All of this has been discussed in DEPTH before. Nobody need suggest that ED and/or Yo-Yo are perfect (although quite good at what they do,) so take it easy on em "Fox One." ;)

 

We found that one of the reasons roll rate seemed slow compared to demo footage was that the pilot actually uses momentary speedbrake extension to increase roll-rate.

 

Terrible quality, a bit goofy, and very laggy (hence the wobbly wings) but this is a fair representation of what is possible with the DCS A-10C flight model I flew live some time ago. It matches ACC parameters and is the closest I've seen to the correct profile:

 

http://www.livestream.com/virtualairshows/video?clipId=pla_7f5a8eee-6482-4809-817b-758e2e651570