Test: M1 vs. T-80s Track Files included

[OutOnTheOP]

Yes BUT...How functional and accurate are those fancy FCS systems gonna be after taking 2 or possibly 3 hits from ATGM's before it can return fire???

 

How do you intend that M1A2 to take 2 or 3 hits when that's the entire load of missiles carried by the T-72/T-80 series?

 

You have to remember they just don't carry that many missiles.

 

And there's a reason the US dropped tube-launched missiles. After all, the US developed the Shillelagh tube-launched missile (with a guidance layout almost identical to Svir/ Reflecks, by the way) and abandoned them because even the large Shillelagh (152mm) couldn't pack a big enough HEAT warhead to be effective against modern armor (and this was in the 1970s!).

 

No, there are plenty of things going for the T72/T80 series (HE ammo stowage, high cross-country speed, and low, small profile, mostly), but the missile is an over-rated gimmick.

[OutOnTheOP]

5. Systems like Shtora are IR dazzlers, and won't work against an M1's SABOT round, nor against a wire guided missile like the TOW-2

 

As I understand it, Shtora IS still effective against TOW. You have to keep in mind that while the guidance commands are sent to the missile through a secure wire link, the guidance system has to track the missile through a tracking scope that watches a flare in the rear of the missile to figure out where the missile is in relation to the sight. I'm not sure what wavelengths the flare operates in, but yes, a proper dazzler could theoretically fool the tracking scope into sending invalid commands.

[cichlidfan]

What ever happend to the tread about the M1 agains the T-80?

 

What kind of ships are they? :D

[OutOnTheOP]

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black :D

 

 

 

Harpoons are not loaded in the VLS blocks, but in two separate quad-tubes on deck - each CG-47 class ship carries 8 Harpoon missiles, so two Ticonderoga's makes 16 Harpoons in total.

 

The Velikiy has three separate AD systems; Long range Rif/Fort-M VLS, medium-short range Klinok/Kinshal VLS and six Kashtan/Kortik gun/missile modules.....some two hundred ready-to-fire AD missiles of varies types and 16 gatling type guns.

 

I could possibly understand if your claim was for the reversed situation - i.e. that two Tico's could "easily" deal with ripple fired Granits of the Veliky, but that the *massive* AD suite of the Velikiy shouldn't be able to deal with 16 Harpoons...... :D

 

Ok, but the battle in question also involved 4x F/A-18 (presumably ANOTHER 16 harpoon) and 2x B-52 (another 24 harpoon). And again, you're forgetting the VLS systems. Standard can be operated in SSM mode- and HAS been, quite successfully; read up on Operation Praying Mantis- and Standard is a small, supersonic missile. Sure, the warhead isn't optimized for antiship work, but it'll do the same trick HARM will against surface vessels: poke out their eyes. I don't care HOW many SA10 the PV is carrying, if it can't guide them onto a target. And VLS can also carry Tomahawk... I agree that the current ones are stocked primarily with TLAM, but I'd hesitate to claim there is no longer TASM capability.

 

Either way, that's a LOT of Standards. And a properly coordinated attack is going to hit with a wave of them, followed by 56 harpoon timed to hit as a wave.

 

Yes, I think the PV is going to have serious issues with that. I think it's going straight to the bottom in that kind of situation.

 

Now, do I think one Ticonderoga will overcome PV unsupported? No, but that wasn't the question, now was it?

[Boogie Van]

Reading through this thread, I think it's the lack of deflection on the far ends of the Abram's turret.

 

That, coupled with the fact we do have an arbitrary HP system to handle how damage works.

 

Again, mission/mobility/gun kills should probably something that is added into various ground units, along with the capability to repair them.

 

Leopard 2's have even weirder hit boxes, though. @.@ Has anyone messed with other tanks yet?

[OutOnTheOP]

Are you suggesting adding a 'moonshiner' skill setting?

 

I think things are a bit skewed in the sim but I also think that NATO anti-ship missile technology needs improving. The days of gliding sub-sonic missiles past major naval air-defence systems are gone, unless you're fighting against some shit-hole navy operating out of patrol boats. Worryingly, even Syria has P-800s.

 

THAT I'll agree with. Even South Korea is developing indigenous supersonic ASMs... how the hell the US has managed to pass up on replacing harpoon for so long just boggles the mind.

 

The only explanation I can think is that they're relying on first blinding the opponent's radar with HARM or Standard, like I suggested above. And, of course, Standard warheads might not be as underpowered against shipping as an earlier poster suggested- you have to keep in mind that no one really armors ships anymore. We aren't fighting WW2 dreadnoughts with thick armor belts- everyone relies on avoiding hits rather than absorbing them these days

[Boogie Van]

Hey, how do other tanks fair against the T-80U?

 

We've still got items like the Leopard 2, the Leclerc, and the Challenger (is it 1 or 2 in this? I can't tell), and I think you can strike the Leopard 2's side armor from the front without hitting the tracks, much like the Abrams.

[HiJack]

Reading through this thread, I think it's the lack of deflection on the far ends of the Abram's turret.

 

That, coupled with the fact we do have an arbitrary HP system to handle how damage works.

 

Again, mission/mobility/gun kills should probably something that is added into various ground units, along with the capability to repair them.

 

Leopard 2's have even weirder hit boxes, though. @.@ Has anyone messed with other tanks yet?

Yes yes! All is fun against the T-55 :D

[Invader ZIM]

LOL, I do have to admit we did take this thread from a tank battle to a sea battle and back again. My apolgies for that guys. I rather enjoy discussion about all things military though, and it was fun to see what our sim is doing with some of the weapons systems.

 

Thanks for that info OutOnTheOP, I never considered the TOW to be suseptible to an IR jammer because of it's wire guidance, learned something new there :) Now I wonder if we can model that in game lol.

[HiJack]

It is possible to even the tank battle in some degree by using the ARV-BTR-RD which have a very good TOW. Set up 4 T-80's and 4 M1's but add a couple of TOW's (the Stryker is also good) to the M1 group and do a rematch!

 

(HJ)

[JCamel]

I think what might be interesting, if we were to considered a really forced encounter here, and they both defended successfuly against each other's SSMs, is that I believe that most if not all ship-borne AD missiles also have an SSM mode. That's not counting the guns :D

Have you seen the PV's 16 AK630s and AK130 in action against surface targets? I did a simulation where I put it up against 60 M1A2s and 60 Infantry M4. They were decimated. The AK130 fires 130mm rounds at a rate of up to 80-90rds/minute. The rounds are over 1.5m long (case and projectile). The fire rate in equivalent to 4-5 127mm Mk45s.

[JCamel]

Eh not quite - the firing rate of an AK-630 is ~ 4000-5000 rounds a minute. Only the two first units of the Kirov class(Ushakov and Lazarev) have AK-630s, while the two last units(Nakhimov and Pyotr Velikiy) have Kashtan combat modules instead - since these each have two such guns, the combined firing rate would be double that of an AK-630 mount.

6000rpm x 16 for 16 guns.

 

6000rpm x 2 per Kashtan x 8 Kashtans.

[Alfa]

Ok, but the battle in question also involved 4x F/A-18 (presumably ANOTHER 16 harpoon) and 2x B-52 (another 24 harpoon).

 

Yes I realise that this was the mission setup, but I responded to your claim that a couple of "CG could easily overwhelm the AD of Pyotr Velikiy with Harpoons"

 

And again, you're forgetting the VLS systems. Standard can be operated in SSM mode- and HAS been, quite successfully; read up on Operation Praying Mantis- and Standard is a small, supersonic missile.

 

I am not forgetting, but I find the idea of taking on the most powerful missile cruiser in the world with AD missiles as the main offensive armament rather silly to be honest :D . Like I said earlier, many long- and medium ranged SAM systems(including the Russian Rif and Shtil) can be used in this fashion, but it is quite frankly something of a "curiosity" - a very last resort when everything else has failed.....just before having the crew throwing their lunch boxes and coffeee mugs at the enemy :D

 

Sure, the warhead isn't optimized for antiship work..

 

No you can say that again.....the warheads are minute.

 

.. but it'll do the same trick HARM will against surface vessels: poke out their eyes.

 

How can they "do the same trick" as HARMs....anti-radiation missiles are equipped with passive radar seekers designed to home on radar emmissions - i.e. have the ability to actively seeking out radars. Using dedicated SAMs in the way you propose, you are just "pelleting" the ship without having any control over where and what they hit.....just hoping that some might hit some sensitive sensory top-side.

 

 

I don't care HOW many SA10 the PV is carrying, if it can't guide them onto a target.

 

Like I said the Rif missiles(48N6) can also be used in this way - although it is a little hard to imagine that being necessary considering that the Kirov class packs 20 massive supersonic Granits :D . Which BTW is one of my gripes with the situation in question......the Granits can be launched more than 500 km from target, which in turn means that a scenario where the opposing surface ships get close enough to start using their SAMs and guns against eachother is highly unlikely.

 

And VLS can also carry Tomahawk... I agree that the current ones are stocked primarily with TLAM, but I'd hesitate to claim there is no longer TASM capability.

 

Well I am pretty sure they were retired - long ago actually(sometime during the early nineties). I also remember reading that the remaining stock was converted to TLAMs.

 

Either way, that's a LOT of Standards. And a properly coordinated attack is going to hit with a wave of them, followed by 56 harpoon timed to hit as a wave.

 

Yes, I think the PV is going to have serious issues with that. I think it's going straight to the bottom in that kind of situation.

 

Whatever :D

 

Now, do I think one Ticonderoga will overcome PV unsupported? No, but that wasn't the question, now was it?

 

No the question(as you put it) was two - doesn't change anything as far as I am concerned :) .

Edited July 21, 2012 by Alfa

[jazjar]

You all are talking about Ship v. Ship... All it takes is one Seawolf/Los Angeles class attack sub, one Mk 48 and one of the most impressive vessels in the Russian Navy is gone.

[jazjar]

Just because the Navy says... "TASM is out of inventory" doesn't mean that if it needed to, it could call up a lot of them, really fast.

[jazjar]

THAT I'll agree with. Even South Korea is developing indigenous supersonic ASMs... how the hell the US has managed to pass up on replacing harpoon for so long just boggles the mind.

 

The only explanation I can think is that they're relying on first blinding the opponent's radar with HARM or Standard, like I suggested above. And, of course, Standard warheads might not be as underpowered against shipping as an earlier poster suggested- you have to keep in mind that no one really armors ships anymore. We aren't fighting WW2 dreadnoughts with thick armor belts- everyone relies on avoiding hits rather than absorbing them these days

Have you heard of LRASM?

[Alfa]

You all are talking about Ship v. Ship... All it takes is one Seawolf/Los Angeles class attack sub, one Mk 48 and one of the most impressive vessels in the Russian Navy is gone.

 

Another wild claim fired from the hip huh?

 

Surface ships actually have means to combat submarines - and few has as many such means as the Pyotr Velikiy.

[JCamel]

You all are talking about Ship v. Ship... All it takes is one Seawolf/Los Angeles class attack sub, one Mk 48 and one of the most impressive vessels in the Russian Navy is gone.

The MK48 is slow compared to Russian torpedos:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

 

This can be carried in the Velikiy's 533mm torpedo tubes.

Edited July 21, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Profanity

[Alfa]

Just because the Navy says... "TASM is out of inventory" doesn't mean that if it needed to, it could call up a lot of them, really fast.

 

You think that if a missile has been out of inventory for two decades, the navy can just "call up a lot of them really fast"....I see :D .

 

Besides, could it be that there was a good reason for retiring them?

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I wonder why it's still being used. Could it be because it's accurate and lethal, unlike the needs-to-be-nuke-tipped-so-I-can-kill-him-if-I-die revenge weapon?

 

The MK48 is slow compared to Russian torpedos:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

 

This can be carried in the Velikiy's 533mm torpedo tubes.

Edited July 21, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Quote edit

[Alfa]

The MK48 is slow compared to Russian torpedos:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval

 

This can be carried in the Velikiy's 533mm torpedo tubes.

 

I don't know about that JCamel, but the Velikiy is bristling with ASW systems.

 

As mentioned earlier it has a very powerful and sophisticated sonar suite, has automated ASW morters(which can fire guided projectiles, mines and decoys) for self protection against torpedo attacks, anti-subarine missiles(launched through torpedo tubes) and of course carries dedicated ASW helicopters.

Edited July 21, 2012 by 159th_Viper
Quote edit

[jazjar]

Very powerful and sophisticated sonar suite... A lot of good if the weapons you use, mortars, missiles, torps, can't reach it. ADCAP is extremely long range, and a perfect submarine tactic is just sitting in front of the ship until it gets into range, no sound, nothing for the sonar to hear. Decoys are no match for the ADCAP's sensor package that has been upgraded 7 times. ASW combat is extremely complicated with things like thermal layers, CZ zones, and whatnot. I think a commander already having to worry about surface ships, aircraft, and whatnot would not be able to handle all of that.

[JCamel]

Yeah, I wonder why it's still being used.

So do I. The MK48 was designed at the end of the '60s.

Edited July 21, 2012 by JCamel

[Buzpilot]

So do I. It was designed at the end of the '60s.

 

Probably a training version of this that sank Kursk?

I know the fuel likely selfignite if it leaks on anything corroded.

[JCamel]

Very powerful and sophisticated sonar suite... A lot of good if the weapons you use, mortars, missiles, torps, can't reach it. ADCAP is extremely long range, and a perfect submarine tactic is just sitting in front of the ship until it gets into range, no sound, nothing for the sonar to hear. Decoys are no match for the ADCAP's sensor package that has been upgraded 7 times. ASW combat is extremely complicated with things like thermal layers, CZ zones, and whatnot. I think a commander already having to worry about surface ships, aircraft, and whatnot would not be able to handle all of that.

ADCAP can be intercepted by Shkval.