Smaller sun for DCS World

[Leto]

Wow! Excellent job! :thumbup:

[Ninefingers]

I like it, thanks Mustang and Peter !

[Corrigan]

Maybe I can open this up to the community? Could someone run my track (attached) and see if they have any flickering? It should start after 10-20 s or so (it's worst in the lower half of the screen). Thanks.

 

EDIT: If you wanna be really helpful, you could also run the following settings: 1680*1050 and HDR on (any colour temp setting).

 

EDIT 2: Actually, resolution doesn't matter. Just as long as HDR is on I see it, so just run with your settings!

flickeringtrack.rar

Edited August 11, 2012 by Corrigan

[PeterP]

I will have a look again.

Edited August 11, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

Thanks P. I didn't want to ask too much of people, but alright, I'll put my resolution. I think that's the only one that matters, I've tried changing them all and still get it.

 

EDIT: Actually, resolution doesn't matter either (I get it with any res).

Edited August 11, 2012 by Corrigan

[PeterP]

NO - no flickering.

 

My used settings on a HD6870 with CCC 12.1:

[Corrigan]

Using exactly those settings (or Nvidia equivalents) I still get it. This is really odd.

I've also tried a full new install, playing with all of the parameters you've changed for the mod, using other graphics drivers etc. Still flickering.

 

Regarding tweaking the mod parameters: if I restore the size of the sun, the flickering disappears, or gets more elusive. Also, increasing the magnitude of HDR makes it appear further back in the zoom spectrum (ie for larger FOVs). I think this is because the engine applies max HDR for darker and darker scenes, and whichever factor makes the intensity decrease again (the darkening part of the flicker cycle) isn't large enough in comparison to produce the effect.

 

I'm currently playing with the newLum and curLum variables, and aTime (I'm assuming this is 'adjustment time') to see if I can slow the oscillation somehow.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Corrigan

[PeterP]

First:

are you are using any other mods that can change the graphical appearance?

If so - which ones? - I asking especially about a setting that can change the wave ripple.

-so that the scene brightness changes often and brings the HDR in a state that it does not know if to darken the screen or to lighten it.

I hope you get my point.

Second:

Have you tried different drivers like I advised you some posts ago ?

 

 

Third:

Save your time and only change in the \DCS World\Bazar\shaders\PostMotionEffect\HDR.fx

 

in line #402 and #428

 

heightTX / 0.13;

 

to 0.15 and test

 

and if the flickering is still there higher it in small steps and have a look again.

 

Use this settings for your test

0.17 - 0.25 - 0.33 and so on until it disappears ...hopefully.

 

 

!warning! this can bring all the sun settings out of balance and you will probably have to rework your Rays.tga and also the Hdr settings/Sunsize in the SkyQuad.fx again.

Edited August 11, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

First and second: I dunno if you missed my last post, but I've tried several drivers and also a completely clean DCS install.

 

Third: Yeah, I've played with the height and width. Not entirely sure, but my impression is that those values control the size of some kind of glowy overlay over the sun. Using different values for heightTX and widthTX you can get non-circular ellipses. Using large values (~10) you can actually get a grid of many sun discs :D

 

And regarding your warning: yep, I know, the balance is thrown off by any one of the 3 or so settings that control luminosity.

 

EDIT: Using larger height and width actually just makes it more noticeable. Here's an example of that (using the stock value of 1):

 

RCQHsY7GoeY

Edited August 11, 2012 by Corrigan

[PeterP]

.

 

Third: Yeah, I've played with the height and width. Not entirely sure, but my impression is that those values control the size of some kind of glowy overlay over the sun. Using different values for heightTX and widthTX you can get non-circular ellipses. Using large values (~10) you can actually get a grid of many sun discs :D

 

 

I'm not talking of the "float2 dx" setting in line 403 and 429 ....

 

This is causing the spread of the several samples like you describe above...

 

 

I clearly wrote :

"in line #402 and #428

 

heightTX / 0.13;

 

to 0.15 and test"

 

 

This changes the glowradius and also the behaviour of the HDR.

 

Have you tried it ?!

 

-------------------------------------------------------

Please don't get me wrong - I really want to help - but it is really hard for me to help you to debug it when you don't give popper feedback.

 

So I'm putting it straight:

 

I give the advises not only because I'm so happy to see my post-count rising - I expect that you make some test and than tell me exactly what has changed and/or provide screenshots /videos

--- and I'm really not interested in what you believe or your "impressions"

...we are talking about functions of shaders in DX applications and not about religion...

:)

 

 

 

Edit: I would be also very interested in a video where you use TrackIR or change the FOV forth and back a little when the flickering is visible.

Edited August 11, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

Yes, we're talking about the same lines:

 

402: float X = widthTX / 0.15

 

428: float Y = heightTX / 0.15;

 

width and height, as I've been referring to them. When I saw several suns, I may have changed the wrong line that specific time.

[PeterP]

Yes - you obviously changed the wrong line...

 

 

again:

 

 

I clearly wrote :

"in line #402 and #428

 

heightTX / 0.13;

 

to 0.15 and test"

Use this settings for your test

0.17 - 0.25 - 0.33 and so on until it disappears ...hopefully.

This changes the glowradius and also the behaviour of the HDR.

 

Have you tried it ?!

 

 

...

 

 

Edit: I would be also very interested in a video where you use TrackIR or change the FOV forth and back a little when the flickering is visible.

 

 

Have you tried it? - what was the result?

Edited August 11, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

I obviously changed the wrong line only the time where I saw multiple suns. This was yesterday. The rest of my post is still relevant. This means that I have tried it and it has not fixed it.

 

 

Using larger height and width actually just makes it more noticeable. Here's an example of that (using the stock value of 1):

 

RCQHsY7GoeY

 

Feel free to criticise my feedback, but not when you don't read/misunderstand.

[PeterP]

up to which exact value? how many times did you higher it?

 

...let my explain:

 

 

when you had been gone up to 1.5 in the "widthTX / x.xx" you would have the original glow-disk back....

 

 

So I ask you again:

how did you made these tests until you have stopped ?

 

--------------------------------------

:)please don't give any more responses to my post until you really made it - and /or don't expect a reply from me until I really have some results that I can work with.

Edited August 11, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

Just now, I tried the three explicit values you suggested, and 1.0 for the video (which is the vanilla value, not 1.5, as I wrote).

 

Yesterday, I tried perhaps 10 other values, in this region. All make the flicker perform slightly differently (appear at different FOVs), but this is obviously expected, as any change in the HDR settings would reasonably have an effect on the flickering.

[PeterP]

Just now, I tried the three explicit values you suggested, and 1.0 for the video (which is the vanilla value, not 1.5, as I wrote).

.

 

I didn't told that 1.5 is the original value --- I was talking about the glow size....in conjunction with my edited SkyQuad.fx...

 

Feel free to criticise my feedback, but not when you don't read/misunderstand.

Yes- and I understood - I expect you to do the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back on your topic!:

Revert the HDR.fx to the one that is in my mod.

 

now do this:

 

higher please the in the \DCS World\Bazar\shaders\sky\skyQuad.fx in line #49

 

...step(0.4, D) * 300.0 * HDR;

 

 

the 0.4 in discrete steps of 0.5 and observe the change.

(>4.5>5.0 and so on)

 

When you found a value where the flicker disappears change in the same file in line#47:

 

...lightVec.xyz), 0.0, 1.0)), 100000.0);

 

to 120000.0 > 140000.0 and so on -until the sun-disk has a good size again.

 

 

Than adjust your HDR "Power" again like I describe in the ReadMe.

Edited August 12, 2012 by PeterP

[PeterP]

curious... are you trying to play games with me?!

 

RCQHsY7GoeY

 

 

Again - please show me one video that has the same settings like above but you are change the zoom/FOV ---

 

I have the felling that "we" chase a phantom that is only visible when you use FOV settings that are very uncommon.... (please tell me if you fly at a FOV of 140° all the time at 1680x1050...I can't imagine that this is comfortable...)

 

I bet the flickering would disappear when you would zoom a little in- please prove me wrong!

 

Edit (I made some testing):

Because what I see in the vid above I can easily reproduce - I can also Zoom out until the smaller sun-disk is at the edge of only one Pixel - and starts to disappear - so the flickering begins....

But I only see it at "lower" res as I'm using normally 3840x1790.

 

But I never had it while zoomed to the hud e.g. 60°-90°FOV even if I have 1680x1050.

 

It's now the third time I'm asking you for a video that shows the usage of TrackIR or changing the FOV....

 

Please let us stop to beat around the bush...

Edited August 12, 2012 by PeterP

[HiJack]

OK I got the smaller sun MOD working but when I set the HDR option to OFF the old BIG sun reappears. Is that how it should be?

 

(HJ)

[PeterP]

Yes - it's normal.

 

no HDR = No use of this mod.

 

The sun without HDR is calculated in a complete different way.

 

 

EDIT: Thanks, Will edit the ReadMe with a sentence that mentions that it only works with a HDR setting.

Edited August 12, 2012 by PeterP

[HiJack]

OK, thanks Peter

[aaron886]

If you can figure out how to shrink the sun without HDR... then you are TRULY the Lock On effects mod wizard. :sorcerer: (Speakin of which, we need more effects mods, don't we...)

[PeterP]

that's easy-peasy - it's almost the same like it was able with a Lock-On mod. - please search yourself for it and change the appropriate files in DCS.

 

-I don't use "HDR Off" - so it makes no sense for me/no interest/I have no use for it - so spending time on writing a instruction for it is a waste of time for me . :)

 

BTW: I don't want to be something like a "TRULY the Lock On effects mod wizard."

(Speakin of which, we need more effects mods, don't we...)

...so start to create your own! >

first hint : you will find Gimp very useful when resizing the "HDR off" sun :)

 

second hint: search for "sun" in the DCS/LockOn installation folder...

Edited August 12, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

Back on your topic!:

Revert the HDR.fx to the one that is in my mod.

 

now do this:

 

higher please the in the DCS WorldBazarshadersskyskyQuad.fx in line #49

 

...step(0.4, D) * 300.0 * HDR;

 

 

the 0.4 in discrete steps of 0.5 and observe the change.

(>4.5>5.0 and so on)

 

When you found a value where the flicker disappears change in the same file in line#47:

 

...lightVec.xyz), 0.0, 1.0)), 100000.0);

 

to 120000.0 > 140000.0 and so on -until the sun-disk has a good size again.

 

 

Than adjust your HDR "Power" again like I describe in the ReadMe.

 

Understood! I've tried this, and no values I tried got rid of the flickering. Raising this value from 0.4 seems to make the sun smaller. I used a 0.05 step size, and tried all the way up to 1.1 or so, where the sun disappears completely.

 

If I lower it instead, the prevalence of the flickering gets less and less, as the sun grows in size, until it's gone completely/very rare with a large sun (like in stock DCS).

As a side note, I can produce this effect by playing with the number in the line above too (as you would expect),

 

float D = pow(abs(clamp(dot(normalize(viewPos.xyz), lightVec.xyz), 0.0, 1.0)), 100000.0);

 

Finding a sun which is as small as possible, with flicker as rare as possible, and at the same time with a just right amount of HDR, has been the focus of my efforts today and yesterday.

 

The only strange thing here is that you can't get the same thing on your system.

 

Again - please show me one video that has the same settings like above but you are change the zoom/FOV ---

 

I have the felling that "we" chase a phantom that is only visible when you use FOV settings that are very uncommon.... (please tell me if you fly at a FOV of 140° all the time at 1680x1050...I can't imagine that this is comfortable...)

 

I bet the flickering would disappear when you would zoom a little in- please prove me wrong!

 

You're right, I don't fly at that FOV normally. The flickering, however, appears at different intervals in the spectra of FOV, for different sun size and HDR settings. The videos I have shown have just been examples of values of FOV inside these intervals. Here is a new video:

 

This is with your mod (no values changed), and as you can see, in a FOV in which you could find yourself during normal flying.

I have removed the rays.tga, so that you can better see the sun disc, and that it is not just one pixel.

 

 

 

Edit (I made some testing):

Because what I see in the vid above I can easily reproduce - I can also Zoom out until the smaller sun-disk is at the edge of only one Pixel - and starts to disappear - so the flickering begins....

But I only see it at "lower" res as I'm using normally 3840x1790.

 

But I never had it while zoomed to the hud e.g. 60°-90°FOV even if I have 1680x1050.

 

As I wrote just above, and as you can see, the sun isn't just one pixel. I'll agree with you that, as far as I can remember at the moment, I haven't seen it zoomed to the hud (with the stock mod settings -- when I've been experimenting with lower HDR settings it's possible to produce it at any FOV). However, I don't think the FOV in the above video is rare in normal play, at least not for me (when heads-down and still wanting some situational awareness for example.).

 

I first thought that the flickering is caused by the sun being redrawn by the engine (into a different shape, if you know what I mean). You can see that happen normally when the sun is moved across the screen. After the mod, the sun has a much lower relative resolution, because it's smaller, and as such the change in lighting when a pixel is added by the engine on the side of the sun, for example, is relatively much larger. This would then produce the flickering, as the HDR engine adjusts to the new lighting every time the sun is redrawn. Do you understand what I mean?

Nothing I've seen in my tests have contradicted this, but I just can't understand why this would appear on my system and not yours. Maybe that's an Nvidia/ATI thing.

 

curious... are you trying to play games with me?!

 

I'll ask you now, nicely, to stop with these kinds of comments. I appreciate your help, but that is not constructive. Thanks. :)

[PeterP]

Thanks for the detailed info!

and also thanks for the new vid ...

 

but like I wrote three times before-:

I'm curious to see a Video where you change the FOV slightly when this flickering starts.

 

and as I see is uploading a videos no problem to you... so why you over-look my request since all these postings?

- so my suspect is still existent : curious... are you trying to play games with me?!

-please understand me : I'm a little feed up of this as I don't get your intention to just ask if others experience the same without even mentioning your settings and so on... that since the last three days..

Just look back at your/my postings starting at post count #40 up to now...

Edited August 12, 2012 by PeterP

[Corrigan]

Thanks for the detailed info!

and also thanks for the new vid ...

 

but like I wrote three times before-:

I'm curious to see a Video where you change the FOV slightly when this flickering starts.

 

and as I see is uploading a videos no problem to you... so why you over-look my request since all these postings?

 

Already 4 pages ago I said

 

Not when I just change it slightly, but it's not visible for all FOVs. It's visible for quite a large part of the FOV spectrum though.

 

I didn't realise you wanted me to prove it with a video. This is no problem though, it'll only take a minute. Here:

 

 

That's your mod stock. Naturally, I never use the very furthest out level of FOV, but as I said before, the level right where the flickering starts to occur I use from time to time.

 

- so my suspect is still existent : curious... are you trying to play games with me?!

-please understand me : I'm a little feed up of this as I don't get your intention to just ask if others experience the same without even mentioning your settings and so on... that since the last three days..

Just look back at your/my postings starting at post count #40 up to now...

 

I've already explained that?! It's because my settings don't matter. I get this issue with every setting I've tried. Why would I make it more difficult for people to help me by telling them to change resolution, when there's no point in doing so?

There is, as I'm sure you'll agree, no real point in discussing these kinds of things. This is the last I will say on such matters. On to more productive stuff!