Tunguska Missles steer like ATGM - should that be?

[schroedi]

When shooting missles with Tunguska they follow my cross hair like all the ATGMs do. Other radar guided missles like Sa-15 or Sa-8 don't do this, they find their target by just keeping the enemy in the circle.

Is this a bug or should it be like that?

I always thought that Tunguskas tracking radar keeps the cross hair on the target and the missle rides on the radar beam. While in the CA Tunguska version the system wouldn't need a tracking radar because it acts like the UK naval seacat SAM system.

[Revelation]

Tunguska's have both a radar-based SAM tracking system and an optical guidance system. I believe the current implementation of the Tunguska only gives the player the optical guidance system.

 

For mission designers, it's best to include more TORs for CA players to make it more "fair." IMHO.

[foxwxl]

More like a BUG, even in the optical guidance the missile shouldn't fly a barrel roll path

[Boberro]

Tunguska's missiles are guided optically. Radar is used for target search and primary acquisition of sensors. Rest of it is being done by optic system where you lock target and your view follows it. Something similar to the Shkval (where you have to lock target too to get it tracked).

 

Newer Tunguska uses full radar ;)

[159th_Viper]

Correct - Tunguska is a SACLOS system. Search for the term HOT SHOT Radar for more info on the subject.

[Silver_Dragon]

From Global Security

 

HOT SHOT radar system

The SA-19 is supported by the HOT SHOT radar system, which consists of a surveillance radar with a maximum range of 18 km, and a tracking radar with a maximum range of 13 km. The semi-automatic radar to command line-of-sight engagement requires the gunner to track the target using the roof-mounted stabilized optical sight.

 

The integrated fire-control system of the 2S6M incorporates the following components:

 

Target acquisition radar (TAR) (1RL144), operating in the E-band, with a max. range of 20 km.

Target tracking radar (TTR) (1RL144M), operating in the J-band, with a max. range of 18 km.

IFF system (1RL138), operating in C-and D-band.

Direct-view Optics (DVO).

Fire-control computer.

The Target acquisition radar (TAR) (1RL144) antenna is mounted at the rear of the turret and is folded down when not in use. This radar provides primary search capability in addition to measurement of range and bearing. This radar can detect targets out to maximum range of approximately 20 km. It is a coherent system that has sufficient accuracy to permit its use as a range back up for fire-control purposes. The TAR emits a fan beam covering 4.50 in azimuth and 150 in elevation. The beam is pointed at a constant elevation of 7.50 to permit detection of low-altitude targets. The antenna rotates at approximately 1 r/s, which gives a rapid update of the airspace around the 2S6M. The choice of a frequency in the E-band for the TAR is an advantage since there is low attenuation in inclement weather (rain, snow, and fog) at this frequency and therefore the acquisition radar is not degraded in such conditions.

 

The Target tracking radar (TTR) (1RL144M) antenna is mounted at the front section of the turret and has two fundamental functions that depend on whether the guns or missiles are selected. The tracking radar constantly relays target range, elevation and bearing to the fire-control computer, and on the basis if these data the computer generated the laying commands for the weapon system. A stabilized optical sight is used as a back up tracking channel, allowing target data to be relayed to the fire-control computer. This sight is also used to calculate the deviation of a missile's flight path from the line-of-sight, these data being automatically relayed to the fire control computer and used to generate correction signals. During a gun engagement, the TTR functions as an automatic target tracker, feeding target position data to the fire-control computer. During missile engagement, the tracking radar locks onto the target and then lays the optical sight on the target. Subsequently the gunner assumes the target-tracking function with the electro-optic sight, and the radar is used for relaying guidance commands to the SA-19 missile. The tracking radar emits pulse-position-modulated codes for missile guidance. The TTR is a two-channel monopulse design featuring an MTI processor and a digital range-tracking system. The tracking radar is generally cued with coarse range and angle data from the TAR. Alternatively, the targeting information can be passed by means of the command and control network.

[Alfa]

Tunguska's missiles are guided optically.

 

No they are not :)

 

Target tracking and missile course deviation is obtained via optical means, but the 9M311 missile is radio command and the actual missile guidance is done via the tracking radar - transmitting the radio command pulse to the in-flight missile.

 

The Shkval system/Vikhr combination is all optical and uses laser beam riding for guidance, so its completely different.

[Boberro]

I watched year ago movie where operator locked target by black cross on some type of typical old Russian TV screen :D Then this cross snapped to the plane and it was basement for missile guide. There where screen went missile went too.

 

I thought only newest Tunguska use full radar lock, track capability and so on.

Thought we lock target via TV, fire missile and it goes where screen is. Then in close contact it detonates to kill\damage by fuse explosion.

 

If so it seems something is wrong in the game... I often saw myself where missile were doing circles around target within very small distance.... and fuse didn't explode. I've seen once missile went through A-10 and nothing happened... missile went futher and came back 180 degrees.

[schroedi]

There is another issiue with the Tunguska. It seems that the point where the bullets of the cannon actually hit is way above the cross hair.

[Alfa]

I watched year ago movie where operator locked target by black cross on some type of typical old Russian TV screen :D Then this cross snapped to the plane and it was basement for missile guide. There where screen went missile went too.

 

Yes but the actual guidance of the in-flight missile is radio command.

 

Both the target and the in-flight missile are tracked via optical means(TV) - this information is sent to a targeting computer, which generates steering commands for the missile, these in turn are transmitted to the in-flight missile via the antenna of the tracking radar.

 

So it is not really a "radar lock" - the tracking radar is "slaved" to the angular position of the target as obtained by the opticals and just functions as a radio transmitter when guiding the missile.

 

I believe the "Shturm" missile system employed by the Mi-24 use a similar system - i.e. opticals for targeting and a radio transmitter for missile guidance.

[jazjar]

The Pantsir can use the full radar system, but the Tungi guides missiles optically, and guides guns with a radar.

[159th_Viper]

....but the Tungi guides missiles optically...

 

No :)

 

As stated above, missile guides via radio command. Guns are optical (radar providing range) or radar.

[Alfa]

There are also different versions of the Tunguska.

 

I remember we researched this once and it appeared that at least for the more recent -M1 variant, having to manually lock target with TV was only in case of radar jamming(i.e. a back-up procedure) - suggesting a higher degree of automation in terms of target "hand-over" from 3D search radar to 2D tracking radar to opticals.

 

The naval "Kortik" system also uses the 9M311 missile and is fully automated.

[OutOnTheOP]

As I understood it (to perhaps further muddy the waters), with Tunguska, the *target* is radar or optically tracked, while the *missile* is optically tracked via a flare in the tail (like a TOW), using a SACLOS system. Missile corrections are sent *to* the missile via radio link.

 

Interestingly, this makes Tunguska vulnerable both to countermeasures in both IR (spoofing the missile tracking flare) and radio (jamming the missile guidance uplink) channels. Which is probably why Pantsir moved to radar tracking of the missile instead of IR beacon flares.

 

As Alfa mentioned, the M1 version also may have done away with the flare tracker.

Edited August 13, 2012 by OutOnTheOP

[blahdy]

You can throw in an initial 'lead bias' when you maintain your cursor on the target, then as missile gets closer, make the cursor follow the target. Should give you decent chance at intercepting moving helicopter with manual guidance :P

 

(too much fun trying to kill helis in BF3 with TOW)