DonULFonso Posted November 14, 2005 Posted November 14, 2005 i would take a CHProduct over the TM anyday. Couldn't have said it better. Guillemot just had bought the name of TM, hoping to dine off on its once great reputation, and have ruined it from day one that the HOTAS Cougar hit the shelves, what with a complete lack of any support that would deserve that name, and of any communication with their customers. Add to that their inability (not that they ever wanted to) of fixing the inumerable design-flaws that have been all too well known since day one as well and which the HOTAS Cougar has become (in)famous for: paint that's wearing off ('for immersion' to quote Cougar World staff, said James Hallows - then my two pieces must be faulty 'cause the paint didn't come off, or what?), a misaligned speedbrake-switch that'll break sooner or later if you don't fix it yourself, an ill-designed circuitry that's crippling the throttle's rotaries and leaves them with more deadzone than electrical range, dying pots due to a poor quality, and an increasing center-play due to the 'tolerances' that the lowest bidder provides, etc.pp.. You can 'mod' your HOTAS Cougar's hardware faults if you don't mind to spend twice as much money as you've already paid for your stock stick, but there's no 'mod' available to grant you 64-bit support which isn't even planned, let alone scheduled yet ('Guillemot has more important things to do' to quote CW staff, go figure!) or a bug-free soft- and firmware in general - the last time it took Guillemot two full years (no joke, unfortunately) to fix the buggy 2.x-series' drivers, so I wouldn't hold my breath, either. Yes, the HOTAS Cougar - just like its predecessors - in fact IS the only replica of the real deal that's available, and it IS the most ergonomic controller, too (small wonder if you consider how much time and money the military spent on developing it), and this probably makes it the most sexy of 'em all - but it can be quite a bitch, mind, what with all of its hard- and soft- and firmware flaws and bugs and issues and its complete lack of any communication, let alone support, from Guillemot. The HOTAS Cougar definitively is NOT the most programmable controller, thought - that's CH Products' products (ouch), THX to Bob Church's work of the past years. FYI, Bob Church was the 'father' of TM's F-22 Pro who introduced some raw but true programability to the TMs when he had worked for TM, but now he'ss been working for CH since the original TM kicked the bucket. And it's CH STAFF you see active on the boards, answering questions of users and providing TRUE support and who LISTEN to their customers, while TM staff - what's left of them, anyway - seem to be afraid of the death penalty for any sign of life, it seems. [/rant]
Guest ruggbutt Posted November 14, 2005 Posted November 14, 2005 Thanks for setting the record straight ULF. You know the ins and outs cuz you've been there/done that regarding TM. When I was told that you were switching I was shocked. You are one of the old school Cougar guys and to see you leave says something about Guillemot.
TucksonSonny Posted November 14, 2005 Posted November 14, 2005 Thanks for setting the record straight ULF. You know the ins and outs cuz you've been there/done that regarding TM. When I was told that you were switching I was shocked. You are one of the old school Cougar guys and to see you leave says something about Guillemot. Maybe he was just low on cash :biggrin: DELL Intel® Core™ i7 Processor 940 2,93 GHz @3 GHz, 8 MB cache | 8.192 MB 1.067 MHz Tri Channel DDR3 | 512 MB ATI® Radeon™ 4850 | 500 GB 7200 rpm Serial ATA | Samsung SM 2693 HM 25.5 " | HOTAS Cougar Thrustmaster |
Guest ruggbutt Posted November 14, 2005 Posted November 14, 2005 Maybe he was just low on patience Fixed!
Guest ruggbutt Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Whats the difference? I'd use it whether it was free or if I bought it myself. I've had plenty of free stuff given to me that I've thrown in the trash if it was junk.
BuzzU Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 The difference is, he didn't go out and buy it. If the Cougar is so bad, and the CH so good. Why didn't he make the switch a long time ago? Buzz
Guest ruggbutt Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Cuz he didn't see a reason to change at that time? I drove a '71 Chevy 4x4 for quite a long time, about 15 years. I sold it and bought a new truck. I miss the old truck from time to time, but my new GMC smokes it.
DonULFonso Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Ask him if he paid for his CH stuff? Well, to start at the start: I received my HOTAS Cougar for free, though not for nothing - I translated its manuals, and having a piece actually helps to understand it. Does that render the years I spent on CW with helping other users worth nothing? Does that imply that I must not report bugs and flaws? IMHO this never meant that I had to be(come) a 'fanboi'! I still consider the HOTAS Cougar the best controller as far as ergonomics are concerned. But it's far from even good as far as its stock quality is concerned, and it's an absolute disgrace where customer care and support are concerned. And it stopped being the most programmable controller some years ago when CH's controllers took over the lead with a vengeance. I've spent several years with telling the people not to blame everyting on their Cougars but do some basic trouble hunting themselves, starting with doing some RTFMing. I've spent several years with fighting for bug fixes, too, when there was reason to. I've hoped for some form of support to be established by Guillemot since some years, too. I finally had to realize it's but a dream: this controller, once hyped to be 'perfect', not only is shipped in a state far from that, but all too well know flaws and issues didn't get resolved and obviously never will, either. I finally had a chance to not have to worry about how long it might take before some part or other would fail, leaving me without a working support. I took this chance, after quite some time of thinking it over, because I don't owe Guillemot anything. Nor do other Guillemot customers - whatever they might have owed them, they've paid for their controllers and thus should have any right to expect them to work now and to be supported after purchase and to have a working support not only for cases under warranty. The difference is, he didn't go out and buy it. I have to thank a fellow CH user (who knows he's meant) and a certain lady at CH Products for making this possible. That's right, I didn't have to pay for my CHs either. FYI, I didn't have the means, either, as simple as that. But obviously these people, including Bob Church, BTW, esteemed what I have done for the TM community enough to consider it worth it. Does that have to mean that I'm not allowed to become a part of the community and that I shouldn't help other users? FYI, that's my way of paying for my equipment - and I dare say that I've 'paid' for my HOTAS Cougar times without count during the past years, I dare say. Add to that that several dozens of people who were interested in HOTAS system ordered their Cougars due to the discussions we had. However, I no longer can recommend the HOTAS Cougar due to the all to well known reasons: no matter what you do with the hardware is of no importance if you keep in mind that there's nothing you can do about the soft- and firmware. It's that easy. Period. If the Cougar is so bad, and the CH so good. Why didn't he make the switch a long time ago? A long time ago my initial decision to "go TM" instead of CH was based on valid points for me - valid back than, mind. The only item that's still valid is that the HOTAS Cougar is the only true replica with a dual stage trigger etc., and simply the best in terms of ergonomics. All other items on my list where the TMs had scored back then are no longer true this way: now it's the CHs that score, be it with over all quality and durability, smoothness of operation, features and capabilities and programmability, service and honesty of their stuff, customer care and support, etc.. Does that answer your question?
Guest ruggbutt Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Something else that needs to be mentioned is that ULF has been extremely active at the CH Hangar offering advice, answers and scripting since he got his "freebies". He's very competent with scripting and while I don't understand all he's talking about, he's got the other script gurus over there discussing things that may end up as positive changes in another version of CH Control Manager. ULF has dove in headfirst in the CH community. I'm seeing the same attitude and persisitence to help out others as I've seen from him when he was a TM kinda guy. He's earning his keep.
Manny Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Something else that needs to be mentioned is that ULF has been extremely active at the CH Hangar offering advice, answers and scripting since he got his "freebies". He's very competent with scripting and while I don't understand all he's talking about, he's got the other script gurus over there discussing things that may end up as positive changes in another version of CH Control Manager. ULF has dove in headfirst in the CH community. I'm seeing the same attitude and persisitence to help out others as I've seen from him when he was a TM kinda guy. He's earning his keep. This is getting interesting reading, more than the "whaaa my Maverick was shot down" thread. Well I have made my decision to never own a Cougar and have nothing to do with Thrustmaster ever again. I have a question for you Rugg: Which CH controller provides the smoothest, most accurate control, I can get my hands on without walking away after downing a buncha F-15s with Pop-Eye forearms?
BuzzU Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Well, to start at the start: I received my HOTAS Cougar for free, though not for nothing - I translated its manuals, and having a piece actually helps to understand it. Does that render the years I spent on CW with helping other users worth nothing? Does that imply that I must not report bugs and flaws? IMHO this never meant that I had to be(come) a 'fanboi'! I still consider the HOTAS Cougar the best controller as far as ergonomics are concerned. But it's far from even good as far as its stock quality is concerned, and it's an absolute disgrace where customer care and support are concerned. And it stopped being the most programmable controller some years ago when CH's controllers took over the lead with a vengeance. I've spent several years with telling the people not to blame everyting on their Cougars but do some basic trouble hunting themselves, starting with doing some RTFMing. I've spent several years with fighting for bug fixes, too, when there was reason to. I've hoped for some form of support to be established by Guillemot since some years, too. I finally had to realize it's but a dream: this controller, once hyped to be 'perfect', not only is shipped in a state far from that, but all too well know flaws and issues didn't get resolved and obviously never will, either. I finally had a chance to not have to worry about how long it might take before some part or other would fail, leaving me without a working support. I took this chance, after quite some time of thinking it over, because I don't owe Guillemot anything. Nor do other Guillemot customers - whatever they might have owed them, they've paid for their controllers and thus should have any right to expect them to work now and to be supported after purchase and to have a working support not only for cases under warranty. I have to thank a fellow CH user (who knows he's meant) and a certain lady at CH Products for making this possible. That's right, I didn't have to pay for my CHs either. FYI, I didn't have the means, either, as simple as that. But obviously these people, including Bob Church, BTW, esteemed what I have done for the TM community enough to consider it worth it. Does that have to mean that I'm not allowed to become a part of the community and that I shouldn't help other users? FYI, that's my way of paying for my equipment - and I dare say that I've 'paid' for my HOTAS Cougar times without count during the past years, I dare say. Add to that that several dozens of people who were interested in HOTAS system ordered their Cougars due to the discussions we had. However, I no longer can recommend the HOTAS Cougar due to the all to well known reasons: no matter what you do with the hardware is of no importance if you keep in mind that there's nothing you can do about the soft- and firmware. It's that easy. Period. A long time ago my initial decision to "go TM" instead of CH was based on valid points for me - valid back than, mind. The only item that's still valid is that the HOTAS Cougar is the only true replica with a dual stage trigger etc., and simply the best in terms of ergonomics. All other items on my list where the TMs had scored back then are no longer true this way: now it's the CHs that score, be it with over all quality and durability, smoothness of operation, features and capabilities and programmability, service and honesty of their stuff, customer care and support, etc.. Does that answer your question? I knew i'd get a long answer from you Don. You never disappoint..:D No need to defend CH to me. I've loved mine for years. I will admit that the Cougar is more comfortable in my hands though. Buzz
Lange_666 Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Something else that needs to be mentioned is that ULF has been extremely active at the CH Hangar offering advice, answers and scripting since he got his "freebies". He's very competent with scripting and while I don't understand all he's talking about, he's got the other script gurus over there discussing things that may end up as positive changes in another version of CH Control Manager. ULF has dove in headfirst in the CH community. I'm seeing the same attitude and persisitence to help out others as I've seen from him when he was a TM kinda guy. He's earning his keep. Maybe he went CH because he couldn't surpass James Hallows? If you really see the same attitude and persistence in ULF as you've seen in the Cougar forums over at Frugals, then quite a few people will get slammed right in the face by ULF, just in the same way he did on the Cougar forums. BTW, comparisons like these are meaningless. You will have pro and cons for every HOTAS that's available as you will have die-hard fans for everyone of them. Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S, Elgato Streamdeck XL. Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!
Manny Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Maybe he went CH because he couldn't surpass James Hallows? If you really see the same attitude and persistence in ULF as you've seen in the Cougar forums over at Frugals, then quite a few people will get slammed right in the face by ULF, just in the same way he did on the Cougar forums. BTW, comparisons like these are meaningless. You will have pro and cons for every HOTAS that's available as you will have die-hard fans for everyone of them. I don't know about that Lange. There is a lot that quality of construction speaks about the product and I am one to know since I am a former owner of the F-22 PRO and TQS, both of which were a pain in the ass but also brought the feel and joy of flying to bear. What pissed me off most is that Thrustmaster Tech Support suggested the devices be opened by customers and the POTS cleaned, apparently something they could not do before they applied the gook that messed em up in the first place. The Cougar may be a one hell of a sturdy product and I may even buy one or two someday mod and stock but there is something to to say about a product even die hards question out of the box and then, like a stock Mustang, mod it half to death to make it work better and work better is it, not make a good stick the best.
Revvin Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 I knew i'd get a long answer from you Don. You never disappoint..:D No need to defend CH to me. I've loved mine for years. I will admit that the Cougar is more comfortable in my hands though. I don't believe he was defending CH, no need. I believe he was defending the implied prejudice by you a few posts ago.
Yellonet Posted November 15, 2005 Author Posted November 15, 2005 Now that I know that the lights of the X52 can be disabled it is a candidate. It's half the price of a CH or Cougar setup so... i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
DonULFonso Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Just out of curiosity ;) (tho' I'm sure I already know the answer), Revvin: is answering questions considered 'slamming others in the face' over at the CH Hangar :icon_roll ? According to Lange it seems to be the case on Cougar World :icon_redf , you know. If I wanted to 'surpass James Hallows' :icon_roll , Lange, then all I had to do would be to tell you to 'STFU with your complaints' and 'better not upset Guillemot' since 'everything is fine' :p - after all, who needs support or drivers anyway, and who doesn't fancy misaligned switches and an ill-designed circuitry? This probably - actually, more likely than not - might not be enough to 'surpass James Hallows', but at least to draw level with him :D if I'd only repeat it often enough (and probably - though I dare doubt it - might start to believe it myself :rolleyes: , sooner or - rather - later)... Maybe I 'went CH' because I simply couldn't stand this BS of years of appeasement and lies any longer?! Maybe I 'went CH' because I simply wanted to just enjoy my HOTAS without any worries about the present and the future (based on bad experiences in and memories of the past)?!
SwingKid Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Welcome to the board, ULF! Yes, the HOTAS Cougar - just like its predecessors - in fact IS the only replica of the real deal that's available, and it IS the most ergonomic controller, too (small wonder if you consider how much time and money the military spent on developing it), and this probably makes it the most sexy of 'em all - Out of curiosity, why does CH allow this to continue? Can they not make their own ergonomic metal replica, to win flat-out? Or, Guillemot is correct, and a metal stick is simply unprofitable? -SK
DonULFonso Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Don't ask me why they don't make their own REPLICA... I don't have the slightest idea, though I wonder just as well as you do. Maybe - hopefully - they'll do, some day...? But why should they make a METAL controller if their plasics is no ordinary cheapo but high quality material? Or, to come back to the topic of replica or not, why should they if the REAL controllers ALL are made of PLASTICs, too?!
Revvin Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Ulf is a grown man and has his own opinions and nobody will change those but he joined the forums and agreed to the same principles that every other member who has joined. Ulf has posted a very helpful beginners guide to CMS which has been welcomed by those who have read it, the CH Hangar site is frequented by many experienced CH users who are happy to help others and despite being new to CH controllers himself Ulf has also taken the time to try and help others as he learns himself which is appreciated. Whatever problems there are between James Hallows and Ulf are for them to sort out between themselves. Swingkid> I don't speak for CH but I think the issues seen with the Cougar would say it's a risky move with very little benefit to create a metal stick especially when CH's sticks are already well known for their durabilty. With their 25 year history of making industrial grade control's I would'nt expect anything less from them. BTW if you'd like to see a replica F18/F15 stick/throttle then there is a poll on the CH Hangar web-site that mirrors one asked in the forums by Michael from CH Products. The poll requires no registration so for a few mouse clicks you can register your interest.
ED Team Wags Posted November 15, 2005 ED Team Posted November 15, 2005 Revvin, Any word on the possability of a stiffer, even force spring system? I have all the respect for CH and have enjoyed their products over the years, but the light spring force has always been a big turn off for me (yes, this is a personal preference). I'd love to see a stick that combines the even, strength tension of a Evenstrain Cougar with a CH Fighter Stick / Pro Throttle. -Matt Ulf is a grown man and has his own opinions and nobody will change those but he joined the forums and agreed to the same principles that every other member who has joined. Ulf has posted a very helpful beginners guide to CMS which has been welcomed by those who have read it, the CH Hangar site is frequented by many experienced CH users who are happy to help others and despite being new to CH controllers himself Ulf has also taken the time to try and help others as he learns himself which is appreciated. Whatever problems there are between James Hallows and Ulf are for them to sort out between themselves. Swingkid> I don't speak for CH but I think the issues seen with the Cougar would say it's a risky move with very little benefit to create a metal stick especially when CH's sticks are already well known for their durabilty. With their 25 year history of making industrial grade control's I would'nt expect anything less from them. BTW if you'd like to see a replica F18/F15 stick/throttle then there is a poll on the CH Hangar web-site that mirrors one asked in the forums by Michael from CH Products. The poll requires no registration so for a few mouse clicks you can register your interest. Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/wagmatt Twitch: wagmatt System: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3729544#post3729544
Guest ruggbutt Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 The only downside to an all metal stick would be having to use stronger springs to counterbalance the weight. I'll admit also that the Cougar feels good in your hands. The Fighterstick doesn't feel that much worse though, so it's not one of those issues where one surpasses the other by a large margin. My idea of a perfect stick would likely be different from everyone else's here, so the manufacturer does his best to cater to the basic needs of the group. The thing that thrills me about CH is that they are listening. I'd bet that serious discussions are being made about a split throttle.
Revvin Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Revvin, Any word on the possability of a stiffer, even force spring system? I have all the respect for CH and have enjoyed their products over the years, but the light spring force has always been a big turn off for me (yes, this is a personal preference). I'd love to see a stick that combines the even, strength tension of a Evenstrain Cougar with a CH Fighter Stick / Pro Throttle. -Matt I'm sure 531_Ghost said something a while back to me about using rudder springs in his Fighterstick, at least I think it was 531_Ghost. I did like the spring strength in the Cougar and wondered if I'd like the lighter springs on the CH gear when I first switched but now I prefer the lighter springs for a smoother flight and a little better gunnery as I'm not fighting the spring tension just the planes around me (though a mod to make them stick to my gunsight would be nice!)
Guest MichaelCHProd Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 Wags: I have seen a some information on stick tension, saw it at the CH-Hangar (thanks Revvin). There is a quick information post HERE -> http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=508 But the way that worked out was you purchase the springs for the Pro Pedals and place them on the gimble mechanism. This does give you a stiffer feel. Me I like a light touch :D, can I say that on this board?
kaiserb_uk Posted November 15, 2005 Posted November 15, 2005 If I wanted to 'surpass James Hallows' :icon_roll , Lange, then all I had to do would be to tell you to 'STFU with your complaints' and 'better not upset Guillemot' since 'everything is fine' :p - after all, who needs support or drivers anyway, and who doesn't fancy misaligned switches and an ill-designed circuitry? This probably - actually, more likely than not - might not be enough to 'surpass James Hallows', but at least to draw level with him :D if I'd only repeat it often enough (and probably - though I dare doubt it - might start to believe it myself :rolleyes: , sooner or - rather - later)... Perhaps if you wanted to surpass James Hallows you could set up and maintain a Cougar fansite and community where hapless noobs like me can find all the information they'll ever need on using, maintaining, modding and yes, frequently fixing their beloved joysticks. Oh and write Foxy. Or perhaps not. 1
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