Gun fighting with a Kamov

[marcos]

Firstly don't try this. Your gun funnel accuracy isn't anywhere near good enough. Secondly the Ka-50 has impossibly good aim and the first thing it takes out? Yep, you guessed, your gun. Bit of a bug really IMHO.

[159th_Viper]

Firstly don't try this. Your gun funnel accuracy isn't anywhere near good enough. Secondly the Ka-50 has impossibly good aim and the first thing it takes out? Yep, you guessed, your gun. Bit of a bug really IMHO.

 

No bug - the A.I. just does it correctly 100% of the time. In order to meet on equal terms, practice until you are also capable of doing correctly what needs done 100% of the time.

 

Until then, 3 simple rules to get you started:

 

Rule #1: Always use your GBL Cross.

 

Rule #2: Attack from Above.

 

Rule #3: See Rule #1.

[marcos]

Isn't the GBL cross the the boreline sight? That doesn't really help.

 

Impossible to know where they are when attacking from above due to A-10C's lack of sensor fusion. Besides they can point up unless you dive on them almost vertically, in which case, see previous. I'm just going to stick with sidewinders.

Edited August 27, 2012 by marcos

[159th_Viper]

Isn't the GBL cross the the boreline sight? That doesn't really help....

 

You're kidding, right?

 

You tell me that you cannot hit the broad side of a barn using the gun-funnel. I tell you to use the sight in the HUD, said sight guaranteeing that you will NEVER miss once you take the shot and you tell me that that does not really help?

 

Sticking with sidewinders might be the best bet after all :D

 

 

 

Impossible to know where they are when attacking from above

 

X marks the spot - Locate and put him there and dive on him and you'll always be visual:

 

Edited August 27, 2012 by 159th_Viper

[PeterP]

Isn't the GBL cross the the boreline sight? That doesn't really help.

 

Impossible to know where they are when attacking from above due to A-10C's lack of sensor fusion. Besides they can point up unless you dive on them almost vertically, in which case, see previous. I'm just going to stick with sidewinders.

good choice with the sidewinders.

 

... if you don't know - just don't tell 'how to'.

 

edit: Norrised by viper.... - as usual!

Edited August 27, 2012 by PeterP

[MTFDarkEagle]

Impossible to know where they are when attacking from above due to A-10C's lack of sensor fusion. Besides they can point up unless you dive on them almost vertically, in which case, see previous. I'm just going to stick with sidewinders.

Uuuh wha!?

 

Situational awareness!! You don't need a sensor to keep track of something! Use your eyes! Bank your plane and lean to see him! And them pointing up: they could. But it's a MUCH more difficult shot, even IF they can pull one off!

[marcos]

X marks the spot - Locate and put him there and dive on him and you'll always be visual:

So if you want to cheat. I give them a fighting chance.:D

 

I finally did it by loading the Ka-50 with Vikhr Ms. I figured it would use them instead of the gun and predicted that they'd perform just as badly as usual.

 

The GBL cross did seem to work but it shouldn't really given how rounds should fall and given how the gun funnel is supposed to work.

 

My only issue now is that they're ridiculously tough. You will see from the debrief that I hit it on 4 separate occasions to finally destroy it. Seems ludicrous for 30x173mm hits.

 

Okay that's weird, the watch track replay did not match what actually happened, you see me engaging fresh air? Bug? Can De-briefs be posted? There is something wrong here.

Ka-50.trk

Edited August 27, 2012 by marcos

[marcos]

Uuuh wha!?

 

Situational awareness!! You don't need a sensor to keep track of something! Use your eyes! Bank your plane and lean to see him! And them pointing up: they could. But it's a MUCH more difficult shot, even IF they can pull one off!

Ha, try it and see how well it works and post up your results. Even zoomed in, as soon as you get close enough to take a shot with a good chance of a hit, they will kill you.

[159th_Viper]

Ha, try it and see how well it works and post up your results. Even zoomed in, as soon as you get close enough to take a shot with a good chance of a hit, they will kill you.

 

Nope :P

 

Herewith quick and dirty track: As said, Death from Above - acquire, engage and neutralize.

 

Track: Kamov Gun Kill.trk

[marcos]

See my issue with the replay not working properly. This isn't the first time. Can I load the De-brief?

 

EDIT: Watched your track. Not really convinced. It works well enough if you've positioned them and positioned yourself above them in the Mission Editor but if one appears on the level, it's not so easy to climb and maintain a track and then dive without overshoot. It was the first thing I tried but had unbelievable trouble seeing them and when they actively know your there you simply won't get that shot.

Edited August 27, 2012 by marcos

[159th_Viper]

See my issue with the replay not working properly. This isn't the first time. Can I load the De-brief?

 

Watch the track I just posted - the Kamov is neutralized with 90 rounds - not tough at all. Also evident is that he spots me coming but cannot bring his guns to bear as he cannot shoot upwards.

 

It is as we have said from the start of the thread: Locate him, climb and shoot him from above.

[marcos]

Watch the track I just posted - the Kamov is neutralized with 90 rounds - not tough at all. Also evident is that he spots me coming but cannot bring his guns to bear as he cannot shoot upwards.

 

It is as we have said from the start of the thread: Locate him, climb and shoot him from above.

Am about to watch it but my previous saved track is a load of bollox because it isn't what actually happened, so I'd like to load the debrief to prove it.

 

Here is another one getting his tail cut off from an above attack.

Ka-50_1.trk

[159th_Viper]

so I'd like to load the debrief to prove it....

 

No need - we believe you :)

 

The Kamov can indeed be a tough nut to crack dependant on where and how you hit it - it is pretty well armoured. The thing is that you have to stay away from his weapons-engagement-zone cause that 30mm cannon will ruin your day as you yourself have found out.

[marcos]

No need - we believe you :)

 

The Kamov can indeed be a tough nut to crack dependant on where and how you hit it - it is pretty well armoured. The thing is that you have to stay away from his weapons-engagement-zone cause that 30mm cannon will ruin your day as you yourself have found out.

What is the problem with replays not matching what happened though? Dead vehicles just stay hovering as if they were untouched and don't appear even in the locations you shot at them.

 

I'm of the opinion that a GAU-8 should ruin it's day faster than a 2A42 ruins your day! Hits on the Kamov always seem trivial, and leave things like the gun operation, hits on the A-10 are always critical. Needs a re-balancing. We are talking 4200rpm 30x173mm vs 350-550rpm 30x165mm.

 

HE do seem to work better though.

Edited August 27, 2012 by marcos

[159th_Viper]

What is the problem with replays not matching what happened though?

 

Known issue - try and keep tracks as short as possible to prevent possible corruption. Could also be indicative of a borked/modded install - all perceived problems MUST be reported on a default, unmodded install.

 

 

I'm of the opinion that a GAU-8 should ruin it's day faster than a 2A42 ruins your day!

 

No - All it takes is one bullet to perforate/penetrate a critical system and it's lights-out. In any event, my track beats your opinion: 90 rounds and the Helo is dead.

 

 

Hits on the Kamov always seem trivial, and leave things like the gun operation, hits on the A-10 are always critical. Needs a re-balancing.

 

Nothing needs balancing, especially not based on an opinion. We would definitely need more than that prior to forwarding any request to the Devs. In any event, apart from the armoured cockpit (which is the same for the Kamov btw), I am relatively sure that absolutely nothing else on the A-10 is armour-plated (I'll leave it to the professionals to verify). As a consequence that cannon on the Kamov will shred the A-10 to pieces.

[marcos]

Known issue - try and keep tracks as short as possible to prevent possible corruption. Could also be indicative of a borked/modded install - all perceived problems MUST be reported on a default, unmodded install.

The only mod I have is Mustang's lod mod so that some objects don't appear as huge rectangles until you're really close but it has happened before that too. Since you are already aware, I assume it's getting looked at.

 

No - All it takes is one bullet to perforate/penetrate a critical system and it's lights-out. In any event, my track beats your opinion: 90 rounds and the Helo is dead.

Well when you can kill an M1 with 70 shots from a similar distance I'm not exactly sure what that proves, plus 70 rounds per second is far more likely to hit a critical system (and pretty much everything else) than <10 rounds per second simply due to target saturation. E.g. the DU rounds would go straight through the windscreen and hit the pilot irrelevant of armour unless it has an RHA rating of several hundred mm against DU. My opinion stands firmly intact. The Ka-50 takes more rounds than an M1A2!

 

Nothing needs balancing, especially not based on an opinion. We would definitely need more than that prior to forwarding any request to the Devs. In any event, apart from the armoured cockpit (which is the same for the Kamov btw), I am relatively sure that absolutely nothing else on the A-10 is armour-plated (I'll leave it to the professionals to verify). As a consequence that cannon on the Kamov will shred the A-10 to pieces.

All critical flight systems on the A-10 are armoured according to the Flight Manual and the airframe can withstand hits from 23mm.

 

I guess you have your opinion and I have mine. I see something wrong when a helicopter takes more rounds than a tank to down and when inflicted damage on the Kamov looks more like it came from a .50cal than a GAU-8.

[Cali]

Not hard to gun gun a Ka-50, sounds like you may need more practice.

[marcos]

Not hard to gun gun a Ka-50, sounds like you may need more practice.

I can gun it now but the issue is the damage model. With an Su-25T it takes less 23mm gunpod fire to take down an AH-64. Seems to just be a random assumption inherent in the game that Russian hardware should always be tougher than the NATO equivalent.

 

I've seen less .50cal fire being required to down a Cobra and my overall impression of the GAU-8 against the Kamov is that it hits like a .50cal. Hit it once and there's a little bit of smoke from one engine, twice and a little bit more. Finally nail it with a whole second from close range and hey presto, when you've hit it with enough rounds to kill an M1A2, it finally comes down.

 

Forgive me for thinking that even the weakest point on an M1 is stronger than the strongest point on a Ka-50 (with it being an MBT and all). The only weak point seems to be the tail, chop that off mid-fuselage and it will fall.:) Anywhere else and more hits will be required.

Edited August 28, 2012 by marcos

[xxJohnxx]

How do you know that every bullet has hit the flying (!) and proably manuvering target? If you fire 70 bullets and only 1 hit you can't say that the M1 takes less because you maybe hit him with 50 of the 70 bullets, and not just one.

That's the point where Tacview comes in handy, which allows you to analize how many bullets really hit and how many just passed the target.

[Davis0079]

First off, the ka-50 is a flying tank with great armor....if you wish to argue that point, I hope you start by reading up on it a little bit. Secondly, I fly the ka-50 alot...it is very weak against other aircraft and you cannot really be hitting it 70 times...otherwise it would just explode.

 

They have a very good targeting system with a movable gun. So you trying to dogfight one with the slowest plane ever designed is wrong to begin with. In no way shape or form is that what that plane should win at. Matter of fact, most ppl would say thats what that plane should lose at the most. You should try to think of it less of an aircraft and more like a extremely mobile missile site. Use similar tactic that you would engage a sam or AA gun. For some reason I dont think you fly straight at a AA site, then complain that "they got ya".

 

As for spotting one....um.....helicopters are suppose to be good at finding cover and attacking by surprise. Plz dont complain about "he shot me down before I even saw him".....welcome to the world of air combat....

[marcos]

How do you know that every bullet has hit the flying (!) and proably manuvering target? If you fire 70 bullets and only 1 hit you can't say that the M1 takes less because you maybe hit him with 50 of the 70 bullets, and not just one.

That's the point where Tacview comes in handy, which allows you to analize how many bullets really hit and how many just passed the target.

Funny how all the bullets from the Kamov seem to hit even with recoil then.

 

It's a simple probability thing really. If I fire a 1s burst with a GAU-8 and only a tenth of the bullets hit, that's still as many as all the bullets from a 2A42 1s burst hitting and the GAU-8 bullets have more KE and more explosive if using HEI. Then you have the fact that there are inherently more dodgy areas to hit on the Ka-50. More exposed cockpit and double rotors for a start.

 

I'm not simply eager for an argument here, I'm saying things as I honestly see them. 0.1s of GAU-8 30x173mm will do more damage than (or at least as much as) 1s of 2A42 30x165mm, even without factoring in the rotor blades and I don't think the first thing to be hit on the A-10 should always be the gun, when the Ka-50 remains more or less fully functionally after being hit by 3 short bursts with the GAU-8, with just a small bit of smoke.

 

As far as I know the Ka-50 is resistant to 23mm, which is standard for most attack helicopters. There is not one single part of the helicopter than will stop a 30x173mm bullet at close range (or pretty much any range) and certainly not a DU round.

[marcos]

First off, the ka-50 is a flying tank with great armor....if you wish to argue that point, I hope you start by reading up on it a little bit. Secondly, I fly the ka-50 alot...it is very weak against other aircraft and you cannot really be hitting it 70 times...otherwise it would just explode.

Show me anywhere where it says that any part of a Ka-50's armour will stop a 30x173mm. Please, I'll be really interested to read that.:) I'm sure the armour performs admirably against .50cal and 20mm but against a GAU-8, it effectively isn't armoured. This is all I can find on it:

 

Extensive all-round armour installed in the cockpit protects the pilot against 12.7 mm armour piercing bullets and 23 mm projectile fragments. The rotor blades are rated to withstand several hits of ground-based automatic weapons.

 

meanwhile for the A-10:

 

The A-10 is an exceptionally survivable aircraft with excellent pilot protection. Its strong airframe can survive direct hits from armor-piercing and high-explosive projectiles up to 23 mm. The aircraft has triple redundancy in its flight systems, with mechanical systems to back up double-redundant hydraulic systems. This permits pilots to still fly when hydraulic power or part of a wing is lost using the Manual Reversion Flight Control System (MRFCS). In manual reversion mode, the A-10 is sufficiently controllable under favorable conditions to return to friendly airspace.

 

They have a very good targeting system with a movable gun. So you trying to dogfight one with the slowest plane ever designed is wrong to begin with. In no way shape or form is that what that plane should win at. Matter of fact, most ppl would say thats what that plane should lose at the most. You should try to think of it less of an aircraft and more like a extremely mobile missile site. Use similar tactic that you would engage a sam or AA gun. For some reason I dont think you fly straight at a AA site, then complain that "they got ya".

Funnily enough, I can ice a Vulcan AAA a lot more easily than a Ka-50 and despite the 6000 rounds per minute it somehow scores less hits???

Edited August 28, 2012 by marcos

[ShuRugal]

I can gun it now but the issue is the damage model. With an Su-25T it takes less 23mm gunpod fire to take down an AH-64. Seems to just be a random assumption inherent in the game that Russian hardware should always be tougher than the NATO equivalent.

 

I've seen less .50cal fire being required to down a Cobra and my overall impression of the GAU-8 against the Kamov is that it hits like a .50cal. Hit it once and there's a little bit of smoke from one engine, twice and a little bit more. Finally nail it with a whole second from close range and hey presto, when you've hit it with enough rounds to kill an M1A2, it finally comes down.

 

Forgive me for thinking that even the weakest point on an M1 is stronger than the strongest point on a Ka-50 (with it being an MBT and all). The only weak point seems to be the tail, chop that off mid-fuselage and it will fall.:) Anywhere else and more hits will be required.

 

 

The AH-64 is not heavily armoured, the KA-50 is. The armor over vital components is rated to withstand 23mm fire. 30mm will penetrate this, but will lose a lot of energy in doing so. Where your shots land also makes a difference. If you land shots in the nose or the tail, you won't hit anything needed to keep the bird in the air. Even if you do hit a vital component, everything needed to keep flying is redundant: hydraulics, engines, electrical circuits; there's two of each.

 

unless you manage to blow the swashplate off or kill the pilot with your first hit, you are guaranteed to need two hits or more for a kill.

[marcos]

The AH-64 is not heavily armoured, the KA-50 is. The armor over vital components is rated to withstand 23mm fire. 30mm will penetrate this, but will lose a lot of energy in doing so. Where your shots land also makes a difference. If you land shots in the nose or the tail, you won't hit anything needed to keep the bird in the air. Even if you do hit a vital component, everything needed to keep flying is redundant: hydraulics, engines, electrical circuits; there's two of each.

 

unless you manage to blow the swashplate off or kill the pilot with your first hit, you are guaranteed to need two hits or more for a kill.

Well that's completely wrong because if you hit the tail mid-section it will come off and the Ka-50 will crash.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1538841&postcount=12

 

Here's my issue with it:

 

Did the damage take the aircraft down, or was it just the weight of the rounds stuck in it that prevented it producing enough lift?:lol:

 

 

Sorry but this is not realistic. Armoured? yes. MBT-like? No. It's a farce.

 

The A-10 systems are also redundant:

 

The A-10 is an exceptionally survivable aircraft with excellent pilot protection. Its strong airframe can survive direct hits from armor-piercing and high-explosive projectiles up to 23 mm. The aircraft has triple redundancy in its flight systems, with mechanical systems to back up double-redundant hydraulic systems. This permits pilots to still fly when hydraulic power or part of a wing is lost using the Manual Reversion Flight Control System (MRFCS). In manual reversion mode, the A-10 is sufficiently controllable under favorable conditions to return to friendly airspace.

 

The aircraft is designed to fly with one engine, one tail, one elevator and half a wing torn off. The self-sealing fuel tanks are protected by fire-retardant foam. Additionally, the main landing gear is designed so that the wheels are retracted so as to make gear-up landings easier to control and less damaging to the aircraft's underside. They also are all hinged toward the rear of the aircraft, so if landing gear hydraulic power is lost, the pilot can simply drop the gear and a combination of gravity and wind resistance will open and lock the gear in place.

 

The cockpit and parts of the flight-control system are protected by 900 pounds (408 kg) of titanium armor, referred to as a titanium "bathtub". The tub has been tested to withstand strikes from 23 mm cannon fire and some strikes from 57 mm rounds. It is made up of titanium plates with thicknesses from ½ inch to 1½ inches determined by a study of likely trajectories and deflection angles. This protection comes at a cost, though; the armor itself weighs almost 6% of the entire aircraft’s empty weight. To protect the pilot from the fragmentation likely to be created from impact of a shell, any interior surface of the tub that is directly exposed to the pilot is covered by a multi-layer Kevlar spall shield. The canopy consists of a bullet-proof diffusion-bonded stretched-acrylic to withstand small arms fire and is resistant to spalling. The front windscreen offers shielding resistant to 20 mm cannon fire.

Edited August 28, 2012 by marcos

[Davis0079]

I think you are miss reading the hit/miss table....when you fire a burst, the score card there is not counting every bullet, it counts the burst as a hit or miss....so the KA-50 vs the vulcan, when the vulcan gun firs a burst and score a "hit"...that doesnt mean he hit you with all 700 shells.....

 

Next....you are comparing a radar guided " spray a thousand shells in a general direction" AA gun with a Laser Range finder tv tracking system......When the Ka-50 locks on to you and your laser warning goes off....guess what.....99% of his shots are going to hit you....the targeting system leads you perfectly

 

so when a vulcan aa gun gets a "hit" on you, you may only take minor damage cuz most of the bullets went right by and only a couple hit you....when the Ka-50 score a "hit" on you, you probally got hit by most of those shells.....it is very "pin point" accurate.

 

And back to the conversation of tactics....what are you doing gun runs on known aa threats for...I pretty sure thats what all those hardpoints are for on the underside of your wings....the gun on even the a-10 is nothing compaired to a maverick missle.....try using those and tell me what your win/lose ratio is vs the Ka-50

Edited August 28, 2012 by Davis0079