Ракеты в DCS

[Chizh]

22 минуты назад, musolo сказал:

Эффект как будто тормозной парашют выбрасывает ей Богу)))

Так и я про то же говорю) 

Нет. Давай быть точным в формулировках. Выше ты написал:

Цитата

А что Mica IR такая дохлая? Делал дуэль Миг-29 против Mirage 2000-5.  Её Р-60 перестреливает по дальности и скорости)))

Тут ты написал неверные факты.

[musolo]

Легко проверить в редакторе миссий.

Минутное дело. 

[Chizh]

21 минуту назад, musolo сказал:

Легко проверить в редакторе миссий.

Минутное дело. 

Что проверить?

[musolo]

5 hours ago, Chizh said:

4 hours ago, Chizh said:

Что проверить?

Выставил боту принудительный пуск на максимально возможной дистанции. Он выстреливает в меня  на дистанции 22км)  На скорости 730кмч. Высота 2280м .Скорость ракеты через 3 секунды после пуска 2012 кмч. На 6й секунде 2346 кмч. на 8й секунде 768 кмч. на 10й секунде 464 кмч. На 13й секунде 300 кмч. И за это время она преодолела дистанцию от пустившего её борта 2.88 км. Расстояние от носителя до летящего навстречу Мига 11км . Расстояние от Мики до мига  8.35км. 

Два бота друг против друга поставишь и сам убедишся что Мика по аэродинамике хуже Р-60.

Я к тому что её починить надо а не к тому что так и должно быть)

Edited May 10, 2021 by musolo

[musolo]

Извиняюсь за опечатки с секундами) Вместо 8й должна стоять 6й  вместо 7й - восьмой) Считал устно без секундомера)  Поправил свой пост . Вы у себя сможете  определить со 100% точностью. Но при первом же взгляде сразу станет ясно о чем я. Слишком разительный тормоз. Сразу бросается в глаза.

[Chizh]

10 часов назад, musolo сказал:

Я к тому что её починить надо а не к тому что так и должно быть)

 

Да, я понял. Ракета нуждается в корректировке.

Но желательно доносить без искажений.

[Vladimir_V_T]

19 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

Нет. Р-27 имеет заметно меньшую дальность чем 120С5.

Бот с Р-27 на встречном курсе может открыть по мне огонь раньше, чем у меня появляется разрешённая дальность пуска, при условии, что мы с ним почти на одной высоте.

[Max1mus]

20 hours ago, Chizh said:

Нет. Р-27 имеет заметно меньшую дальность чем 120С5.

В DCS да, 120B тоже. Реальные летчики Ф-15 и все експерты говорят другое. Не один говорит что АМРААМ-Б и С должен иметь больше.

[GGTharos]

49 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

In DCS, yes, 120B too. Real F-15 pilots and all experts say something else. Not one says that AMRAAM-B and S should have more.

 

They also say if an AMRAAM is launched at you, you're gone.

[FoxAlfa]

22 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

They also say if an AMRAAM is launched at you, you're gone.

Not exactly, to quote a guy who fired them and got a kill with them in combat, and to quote him "They're not hittles, they're missiles" ..... and their hit rate is around 60% precent according from him... 
 

 

[GGTharos]

21 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

Not exactly, to quote a guy who fired them and got a kill with them in combat, and to quote him "They're not hittles, they're missiles" ..... and their hit rate is around 60% precent according from him... 

 

You mean I can't ignore things that are inconvenient to me like physics-based studies and other quotes than the ones I want to use?

[Chizh]

3 часа назад, Vladimir_V_T сказал:

Бот с Р-27 на встречном курсе может открыть по мне огонь раньше, чем у меня появляется разрешённая дальность пуска, при условии, что мы с ним почти на одной высоте.

Давай трек.

Я только что проверил. Сел на F-15 с 120B против Cу-27 с Р-27Р. Мне разрешение на пуск 120B пришло заметно раньше, чем бот пустил свою ракету.

[FoxAlfa]

37 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

You mean I can't ignore things that are inconvenient to me like physics-based studies and other quotes than the ones I want to use?

Exactly 

[TotenDead]

45 минут назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

You mean I can't ignore things that are inconvenient to me like physics-based studies and other quotes than the ones I want to use?

Что за исследования? У нас есть лишь гадания на тему. У тебя есть зона возможных пусков для aim-120C? А для B? Нет, нету? А вот для Р-27 графики имеются

[GGTharos]

19 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

Exactly 

 

10 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

What kind of research? We only have fortune-telling on the topic. Do you have a possible launch area for the aim-120C? And for B? No, no? But for the R-27 there are graphs

 

You've both completely missed the point of the response

 

I have two independent CFD studies that agree with each other on how this AIM-120 thing flies - one performed by ED, one by IASGATG.

[Vladimir_V_T]

1 час назад, Chizh сказал:

Давай трек.

Я только что проверил. Сел на F-15 с 120B против Cу-27 с Р-27Р. Мне разрешение на пуск 120B пришло заметно раньше, чем бот пустил свою ракету.

Тысяча извинений! Вы оказались Правы на счёт дальности. Виноват, каюсь  Единственный вопрос, который остаётся - это то, что бот сразу видит пуск ракеты в режиме TWS и сразу делает манёвр уклонения, но на счёт дальности Вы правы: 120С увренно перестреливает и Р-27, и Р-77.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Vladimir_V_T

[Chizh]

6 минут назад, Vladimir_V_T сказал:

Единственный вопрос, который остаётся - это то, что бот сразу видит пуск ракеты в режиме TWS и сразу делает манёвр уклониния

Проблема известна. Думаем.

[GGTharos]

34 minutes ago, Chizh said:

The problem is known. We think.

 

This is half off-topic (so deeper discussion maybe for a different thread) but responses to missiles come from these sources:

1. Tactics (primary) - this involves coordinated maneuvering that is done even if a missile is not launched.  This is badly lacking in DCS, it would be useful to discuss

2. Missile launch detection - RWR/MWS

3. Missile launch detection - Visual

 

Next step is the actual reaction which involved #1 above and defensive tactics.   #1 is involved because you have a decision to make:  run away or defeat the missile and continue to fight, which depends on tactics (and morale/fear which the AI do not have).   AI 'skill' would affect when/how the choices are made.  I can provide detailed examples with focus on realistic air combat, I am no concerned with MP issues too much.

 

I know it's a big task and needs to be discussed in a LOT more detail, but I really hope you could do something about 'teaching' AI these behaviors.   This also includes formation flight so that the AI can at least fly a reasonable orbit.

[Max1mus]

6 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

They also say if an AMRAAM is launched at you, you're gone.

 

Not a single one said that. Apart from the video Foxalpha posted, which was recalling a situation against aircraft with low amounts of countermeasures and no jammers, the pilots involved in red flag mention how AIM-120s will miss even at close distances, allowing indian MiG-21 and Su-30 to "get to the merge".

 

Find one source from an SME or documents that support the thesis that AIM-120B and C5 should outrange R-27ER.

 

You named one CFD study by ED, where there is an economical bias (better missile=happier customers, mostly NATO aircraft users) and one study by a gamer which does not attempt to hide his biases at all. One of the things motivating him to publish his few page long PDF file was because he noticed that AIM-120s in Multiplayer were not getting kills outside of a few miles when he thought the real one had "a 100 mile range". That whole sentence is a quote from his podcast.

 

I dont mind overperforming missiles. But then all missiles need to overperform, not just one.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Max1mus

[Chizh]

16 минут назад, Max1mus сказал:

 

You named one CFD study by ED, where there is an economical bias (better missile=happier customers, mostly NATO aircraft users)

 

Let's not write nonsense and talk about topics that you have no idea about.

[GGTharos]

32 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

Not a single one said that.

 

You're wrong.  We've had SMEs on this and other forums say that.   Very old news, but it happened.

 

32 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

Find one source from an SME or documents that support the thesis that AIM-120B and C5 should outrange R-27ER.

 

Find one that says it shouldn't.  But wait, before you do that ...

 

32 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

You named one CFD study by ED, where there is an economical bias

 

... and in the sources you like to quote there is a secrecy bias where everything said is sanitized ... pretty easy to say 'tell'em what the internet says'.  Change my mind.

 

32 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

(better missile=happier customers, mostly NATO aircraft users) and one study by a gamer which does not attempt to hide his biases at all.

 

IASGATG is no gamer.  There's a reason why he no longer posts here, that reason is his profession and it has do with this subject.

 

The CFDs are far stronger that any argument you've brought and you have nothing to counteract them with.   You can even use rule of thumb computation from something like Fleeman's book and it'll agree with what they've found - I did it before the CFDs were made.  Admittedly I never did it for the R-27 so I can't speak for that missile.

 

32 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

One of the things motivating him to publish his few page long PDF file was because he noticed that AIM-120s in Multiplayer were not getting kills outside of a few miles when he thought the real one had "a 100 mile range". That whole sentence is a quote from his podcast.

 

Yep, it's also irrelevant.  The science stood on its own.

 

32 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

I dont mind overperforming missiles. But then all missiles need to overperform, not just one.

 

I believe that you just want some kind of balance and so you cling to every little thing that would support your world view.  ED is going to do another CFD pass for the R-27 if I have understood things correctly.  Maybe things will change then, maybe not.  It's possible that it will fly even further because in the current FM the base drag reduction is not considered.

[Max1mus]

There will not be a CFD before ED releases the soviet MiG to the game. Whatever it takes to get the highest profit margin. It could be many years until then.

[Chizh]

7 минут назад, Max1mus сказал:

There will not be a CFD before ED releases the soviet MiG to the game. Whatever it takes to get the highest profit margin. It could be many years until then.

When you make statements, put IMHO, it will be better.

[BlackPixxel]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

ED is going to do another CFD pass for the R-27 if I have understood things correctly.  Maybe things will change then, maybe not.  It's possible that it will fly even further because in the current FM the base drag reduction is not considered.

 

Maybe I misunderstood, but to me it seemed like the basedrag is not modelled at all in the old FM, not the absence of it when the motor is on.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, BlackPixxel said:

Maybe I misunderstood, but to me it seemed like the basedrag is not modelled at all in the old FM, not the absence of it when the motor is on.

 

The drag is modeled as an overall value, base drag is not removed by the rocket plume.  So, saying that base drag is not modeled isn't exactly correct.  More like drag reduction due to rocket plume is not modeled.

Edited May 11, 2021 by GGTharos